[ SECRET POST #2325 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2325 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 037 secrets from Secret Submission Post #332.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

Most of fandom agrees with SJWs on the basic principle of "there are a lot of problematic issues in media, let's poke it with a stick and maybe try to fix it". We all agree that there is racism, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia in media, not to mention a whole host of other things like ableism and cultural appropriation and misogyny (which, yes, I consider something separate from sexism entirely). No one is disagreeing with you there.

What separates SJWs from the rest of fandom (who I tend to call SJAs - social justice activists) is the attitude and the behavior. It's this idea they seem to have that everyone should be educated on these issues, and yet they refuse to explain things themselves ("It's not my job to educate you" is a common one), and they assume that if you make a mistake and use a term with negative connotations without realizing it or mess up some fanart when trying to gauge skin tones or anything else that, simply telling you isn't enough. No, they have to harass you, dogpile you, "call you out" (as if everything was an intentional insult, and not just a mistake born of almost all of us being raised in a culture with all these -isms and -phobias embedded into daily life). Even if you apologize, even if you fix your mistake, it's not enough, you still deserve to be harassed. If you want to offer another side of the story, it doesn't matter - only their side counts.

And, they seem to think this will encourage more people into taking "their" side. They seem to not realize that this turns people away from the cause we all collectively appreciate and perpetuate. This turns the privileged and the majority against us, which is the last thing we need.

Probably the best example I can give is Grey DeLisle. She was very popular on Tumblr for quite a while. Then one day, she happened to make a Justin Bieber joke that smacked a bit of sexism and transphobia. Immediately the barrage started, and some of the worst ones started levelling threats to her family, though mostly people just called her an enemy of women everywhere and a trans-hater. Because of one joke. It was a stupid joke and it should've been called out on and her mistake should have been explained, but she did not deserve that treatment, and as juvenile as it is, I can't exactly blame her for turning almost transphobic in the wake of that event, as well as anti-SJW. People were threatening her son over this joke. While "you're just overreacting!" has long been used against minorities as a way of shutting them down, that doesn't mean it never has any legitimacy ever. While this case is a little extreme, it's not that out of the norm and it greatly showcases just what's wrong with SJWs (and more importantly, how they are different from SJAs and why they are so harmful - there were people who politely messaged her and asked her not to make that kind of joke again and explained why it was problematic - but they got drowned out in the vitriol, and now instead of having another ally who might've apologized for that joke or at least made sure to avoid them in the future, we have lost a powerful friend and have turned her into something approaching an enemy when it comes to social justice).

tl;dr - A lot of us are alienated by popular media. That doesn't mean we should be turning around and alienating everyone else, especially not from us.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

^ xInfinity

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[forgottenjester]

I think we should just, like, link to your post whenever people have questions about SJWs vs. SJAs. We could probably cut down on a lot of the wank.

(Also, I am just so very jealous or how very articulate you always are.)

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

I have an entire comm set aside, ready to launch at a moment's notice, about pursing the balance between advocating social justice without descending into SJW madness, especially in fandom. I've let it lie for a while because the idea seemed to get pretty negative reception at first and both sides of the debate seemed to have (relatively) calmed down a little bit and I don't want to add fuel to the fire, I want to add extinguisher to it. But if more of these secrets keep popping up and this level of debate comes back, I might just revive it and give it another go.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

please never open that community if the attitudes you've expressed in this post are any indication of how it would be operated

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[forgottenjester]

Are you serious? o-o Wow.

Though I guess I was wrong about the cutting the wank in half thing, given the responses. So I don't know if your comm idea would work.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

Eh, this is pretty mild (thus far just about everything on F!S is pretty mild, actually...). I'm well aware that opening that kind of comm would mean opening myself up a lot of vitriol and personal attacks. (I may end up doing it using a mirror account just to keep things in order and not let my fandom activity drown in SJ stuff). I don't really mind that part, I just worry about making things worse instead of better.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[ariakas]

as juvenile as it is, I can't exactly blame her for turning almost transphobic in the wake of that event

Eh, I don't think someone gets a free pass to hate and fear or "almost" hate and fear an entire subsection of humanity because of some jerks on the internet.

Otherwise, well said.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

They threatened her child over a stupid Justin Bieber joke.

Her kid.

That's really fucked up, and if you don't think that Grey was justified in being turned off by that large contingent of tumblr, you need to stop, and think about what you'd do to anyone who threatened someone you're close to.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[ariakas]

"Being turned off by (a) large contingent of tumblr" =/= "fearing and hating an entire subsection of humanity for the way they were born".

Either this was phrased tragically poorly and "transphobic" isn't what was meant, or no, no it isn't in anyway even remotely justified.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

so it's okay to be transphobic if someone threatens your child?

what

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

No, but a couple of things,

1. is there actual proof that this turned incident made her transphobic, or is that just what ~tumblr is saying

2. she made a stupid joke, and get dogpiled to the extreme, with people threatening her, her family, her kid. They accused her of being transphobic and transmysoginist and a ton of other things.

now, if you made a stupid joke, and had a ton of people jump on you and threaten your family for it would you think "oh wow, they must have a point and I should stop" or "wow, they're overreacting" and in response do anything you can to get away from them, because they're a bunch of shitheads.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

It's not okay but it's understandable. Humans tend to roll like that.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

I don't think she deserves a pass to be transphobic. I'm just saying that most likely, she didn't have much experience with trans issues or interaction with (openly) trans people in her life. Then suddenly, a lot of people either directly from or connected to this subset of humanity were attacking her and threatening her loved ones. That's not a good first impression to go by, or second or tenth or hundredth one. She's not right in hating them, but she's not wrong in being scared of them either.

THAT is why I hate SJWs. We lose allies because of them, they turn potential allies into almost guaranteed enemies, especially during a time and stage when we could really all the allies we can get.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

please stop talking

if a white woman is mugged by a black man, is it okay for them to hate and fear all black people? no. does it happen? yes. is it part of a larger social and economic issue? also yes. but saying 'oh no I totally get why they'd think that way - gosh black people couldn't you have come up with a nicer way to broach interacting with this white person?' is so fucking...

just... stop

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

if a white woman is mugged by a black man, is it okay for them to hate and fear all black people?

Nope. Never said that. In fact, I'm pretty sure I just said that my example transphobic blogger doesn't get a free pass to be transphobic because of what happened. If your proverbial white woman starts making racist jokes and perpetuating racist stereotypes, then damn right I'm going to tell her to knock it off. But if a lot of black people start harassing her and threatening her, then I'm going to be telling them to back off, too.

It sucks that so many of us grew up surrounded by hatred and vitriol and marginalization, but there's nothing we can do about what's already happened. You know what we can do? Make sure our kids, our little brothers and sisters, and our descendents don't have to deal with the same shit that we did. The ends don't justify the means, but neither do the means justify the ends.

Maybe I'm a cold-hearted bigot for saying this, but I am far more interested in stopping future bigotry than getting justice for the bigotry that has already happened and can't be erased just by yelling about it.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

no.

just. no.

also look up tone argument because jfc

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

"no"? Why not?

As for tone argument...something like this?

But anyway - I want to hear another side of the issue. Really. But I'm not a mind reader. For me to hear you, you've got to actually, y'know, say it (or, uh, type it in this case). Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you have a very good reason for saying "no. just. no." but I would like to know what that reason is before I concede or argue any points.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

you are saying you can understand why someone would be on board with abusing, mistreating, attacking, assaulting, and murdering me because the internet was mean to them

I really just don't even know how to have this conversation because it is that upsetting

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

"It's not my job to educate you" kills me. No, it isn't, but if you don't want to tell people what the fuck you're talking about, you lose the right to complain about them not reading your mind. Then again, I have autism and I love telling people about it if they ask (probably a symptom of the autism, but meh)...

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

Autism or not, telling people is good! The more people know, the better. :)

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

I don't understand why people wouldn't want to tell people about issues they presumably find important and interesting. Okay, no, it's not your job to tell your life story or explain details of things which you find painful, but if you want people to know what you mean, it is your duty to give them some information and/or direct them to a place where they can find reliable and truthful information on the topic. It's certainly not their job to magically understand things they may never have encountered before.

(I've also had some weird gender issues which were seriously aggravated by the Social Justice Shitbags. I loathed what they were saying on the topic of feminism to the point that I started to wonder if I could really be a girl because they seemed so certain any "Reeel Womyn" would understand perfectly. The issues weren't caused by that, but it certainly didn't help.)

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[glo_unit]

I have to join the people who asked do you actually know if Grey DeLisle is actually and enemy of Trans rights or Transphobic?

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

For a while afterwards, she was posting a lot of things undermining social justice and gender issues in general, though admittedly (iirc) she posted only a few more transphobic things and then didn't really post much more about that specific subject since then.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[glo_unit]

I'm glad she hasn't posted since, because that's kinda shitty.