[ SECRET POST #2325 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2325 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 037 secrets from Secret Submission Post #332.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

The whole anti-"SJW" trend makes me really really sad. It's like "SJW" is the new "feminazi". A strawman used to label, discredit and ridicule people because you deem their concerns trivial or unimportant, and god, they are so ANNOYING ruining everyone's FUN, and attacking people for NO GOOD REASON.
Idk. I know I am a very easily alienated by racist/misogynist/homophobic/transphobic media (4/4 of these actually affect me irl, funtimes), and a lot of the anti-SJW vitriol just feels like a slap to the face.

[(Anonymous)]

It's less the issues and more the behaviour. There are several major issues with a lot of media that affect me too (ableism, misogyny and attacks on other sexualities), and I presume many other anti-SJW people are similarly affect by issues in media. It's just that past a certain point, the cause just doesn't justify the behaviour, and the proposed 'solutions' are as alienating and discriminatory as the problems they're proposing to fix.

Most anti-SJW people aren't saying 'don't care about the issues', they're saying 'don't use my issues as an excuse to bully people or cash in social cred, because doing that is just another form of exploitation'.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I don't know. If you look further upthread, it's people laughing at how ridicolous it is to object to possibly appropriative hairstyles. The anti-SJW people themselves (and I've seen plenty of them) arerarely eager to make that distinction. Like, I have seen a lot of incredibly fucked up stuff being said under the guise of anti-SJW/anti"hivemind" or whatever.
And I am really not sure about what constitutes bullying either. Because I definitely think that there should be consequences for being racist/misogynist/homophobic/etc. I don't think it's horrible to try and create an environment where people face social penalties for being oppressive shitbags, and people like me feel safer and more comfortable because we know that the chances of facing the undermining and dehumanizing shit we have irl in fandom are minimized. You can't appeal to everyone's conscience and educate them and show them why saying that lady gaga looks like a tranny does actual real life harm to people. Sometimes yelling at them until they shut up is all there is.

[(Anonymous)]

I have seen a lot of incredibly fucked up stuff being said under the guise of anti-SJW/anti"hivemind" or whatever.

And I've seen some incredibly fucked up things said by SJWs. Like one of the examples above, that you have to like all female characters or else you're misogynistic. While I may appreciate the existence of all types of female characters, I'm certainly under no obligation to like a female character who rapes and murders people onscreen and happens to remind me of extremely painful memories just because she's female.

There are a number of problems I've seen in SJW circles, among other things overly general diagnoses of what the 'problem' is (you're misogynist if you happen to dislike a murderer?), overly personal attacks directed at people, and often a complete lack of crosssectionality (many characters embody several issues at once, and many SJW rants I've seen pick one and use it to crush the others - so if you like a white character because he's gay, you're being racist, etc).

And I am really not sure about what constitutes bullying either. Because I definitely think that there should be consequences for being racist/misogynist/homophobic/etc.

Yes, there should be consequences. But there is a difference between having to face social disapproval for your actions, and having to face a horde of complete strangers coming into your space all at once to hurl abuse at you. I have seen cases where people have been told they've done wrong, apologised, removed the offending material, and still been hounded by both people who were already there and newcomers being called in by the lure of a scandal. I have extremely clear memories of what being bullied feels like, mostly from the aforesaid ableism issues, and I assure you that I recognise the behaviour very well indeed.

I understand that this is a personal thing. I understand that some people genuinely do believe in 'an eye for an eye' and consider it real justice. I, however, do not.

[(Anonymous)]

To me, SJW is very distinct from a rational person who is interested in social justice issues. I get what you mean, that it sounds like a slur similar to "feminazi" - though I think feminazi is inherently more offensive, for obvious reasons. It's not that we can't talk about social justice issues, it's that SJW is a pattern of behavior that takes it above and beyond, generally littered with personal accusations, bullying, dogpiling, shaming, and so on. with the battle cries of "CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE" and some variant of "Go kill yourself!"

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, but personal accusations can be appropriate, as can be telling people that just because they don't experience sth as a problem, it doesn't mean nobody else does, which probably has sth to do with how said problem looks in society as a whole (privilege).
And, as I replied above, the anti-SJ crowd does not tend to draw the line between behavior and intentions. There's a lot of flinging around of words like "legitimate issues", and comparing things to slavery and women's suffrage. But mostly just loling at those dumb sjws.
I am also really not comfortable with turns of phrase like ·above and beyond", because it sounds a lot like "taking equality too far", which is like, well, how far are we allowed?
The "kill urself" thing is not something I have actually seen, with the exception of "die cis scum", which is fucking complex and should be examined very fucking carefully (death and violent death being kind of a reality for trans people).
What I have seen happen under the guise of SJ was violent misogyny, i.e. fandom members being called cunts and told to get raped. Which is anti-SJ. And I don't mean that in a no true scotsman way, but in the sense that in a supposedly SJW crowd, telling someone to get raped won't get you social capital, and accordingly done anonymously (at least on tumblr) Is this sth worth thinking into? I genuinely don't know and it's late.

[(Anonymous)]

"Die cis scum" is something that needs to be examined "very fucking carefully"? I'm sorry, but WTF do you mean? What is fucking complex about telling someone to die?

Under the guise of social justice, I have seen things such as: it's hilarious when men get sexually abused, it's good when men get raped because then they can understand the plight of women, straight white kids getting bullied is hilarious, people dogpiled and not forgiven ever for making an honest mistake with semantics, and entire communities that are basically a huge circle jerk for showing off how much they hate whiteys and men.

and from this non-male, non-straight, non-white person, SJW get a big "fuck you" from me. they harm the cause, they don't help it.

[(Anonymous)]

ntayrt but 'die cis scum' is never 'omg let's kill cis people' but rather a reclaimation and salvaging social movement attempting to force cis people to see the reality we (trans*) people actually live with. no one is ever going to, in all seriousness, kill you or declare you should be killed for being cis, but we see and hear and face and experience it daily. it's meant as a way of 'put yourself in my shoes' for a people who will never be able to wear said shoes. there will never be a point in social history where someone is actually oppressed for being cis and 'die cis scum' is meant to highlight that fact.

but cis people go 'oh my god so I SHOULD DIE FOR BEING CIS OMG YOU'RE HORRIBLE' because knee-jerking and failing to critically assess the issue. sure, not everyone is going to get it immediately, but that's part of the point. the outrage and hurt and 'but why meeeee' aspect is what a cis person is supposed to feel when they hear that phrase. and then they're supposed to realize '...oh. oh I see'

and to return to the broader topic, I hate the strawman of 'but I have seen a (minority) do (horrible things) so ALL (minorities) ARE TERRIBLE AND NEED TO STFU' everyone in these conversations says they've seen XYZ but citations are always needed and never provided, and the strawman is only ever used to shout down people who are markedly NOT saying (horrible things). ie 'all social justice is stupid because someone* told me to get raped once so you can't complain about rape jokes, rape survivor!'

[jaybie_jarrett]

the rabid SJs aren't even for "equality" they're for "hurt you because I'm hurt".

For example I'm female. I don't want men to be treated like sex objects and scorned and looked down upon, just because I'm more likely to face that as a woman. I want it all to stop all the sexism and racism and ableism and homophobia and other prejudices.

this secret is calling out bullying behavior by SJWs. Their actions. Not their causes. Nowhere does it say the cause is wrong just that people hide behind it to bully.

[(Anonymous)]

This is said perfectly. SJW are about making things "equal" by wanting to hurt others as much as they've been hurt. Not only praising or excusing crimes against "majority" people, but ruthlessly attacking people who make mistakes.

I want equality only in that I don't want to suffer injustice myself. And I don't want other people to face injustices, regardless of whether or not they are in a "majority" group.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't have the energy right now to wade in, but I just wanted to say 'WORD' to all of this.

[(Anonymous)]

a lot of the anti-SJW vitriol is not because people don't want social justice and equality though. A lot of the people I see that critize SJW things want social justice, often they need social justice in that they are amongst the groups that are being discriminated at on a daily business. They criticize SJW because their ways are counter-productive to the cause that is being fought for. Sometimes because of their methods, sometimes because of their concerns.

It's like... SJWs are like PETA. Just because people oppose PETA doesn't mean they are against animal welfare. (supporting PETA is actually worse for animals) Just because people oppose SJWs tactics, doesn't mean they are against social justice.


(just for a fun round up, I've seen SJWs claim that nobody should date outside of their own race, cause clearly that is just too problematic aka racism in a new hat. I've seen them claim that they are totally doing us gays a favour by refusing to get married until we can as if that fucking helps up any. I've seen them claim that things like being a furry or transethnic as valid and totally also makes people oppressed and hunted down by our society. Hell, there is always the fun 'I am kinky so i can be under your queer umbrella too right'. These are all attitudes that actively harm our causes or at best promote slacktivism.)

It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

Most of fandom agrees with SJWs on the basic principle of "there are a lot of problematic issues in media, let's poke it with a stick and maybe try to fix it". We all agree that there is racism, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia in media, not to mention a whole host of other things like ableism and cultural appropriation and misogyny (which, yes, I consider something separate from sexism entirely). No one is disagreeing with you there.

What separates SJWs from the rest of fandom (who I tend to call SJAs - social justice activists) is the attitude and the behavior. It's this idea they seem to have that everyone should be educated on these issues, and yet they refuse to explain things themselves ("It's not my job to educate you" is a common one), and they assume that if you make a mistake and use a term with negative connotations without realizing it or mess up some fanart when trying to gauge skin tones or anything else that, simply telling you isn't enough. No, they have to harass you, dogpile you, "call you out" (as if everything was an intentional insult, and not just a mistake born of almost all of us being raised in a culture with all these -isms and -phobias embedded into daily life). Even if you apologize, even if you fix your mistake, it's not enough, you still deserve to be harassed. If you want to offer another side of the story, it doesn't matter - only their side counts.

And, they seem to think this will encourage more people into taking "their" side. They seem to not realize that this turns people away from the cause we all collectively appreciate and perpetuate. This turns the privileged and the majority against us, which is the last thing we need.

Probably the best example I can give is Grey DeLisle. She was very popular on Tumblr for quite a while. Then one day, she happened to make a Justin Bieber joke that smacked a bit of sexism and transphobia. Immediately the barrage started, and some of the worst ones started levelling threats to her family, though mostly people just called her an enemy of women everywhere and a trans-hater. Because of one joke. It was a stupid joke and it should've been called out on and her mistake should have been explained, but she did not deserve that treatment, and as juvenile as it is, I can't exactly blame her for turning almost transphobic in the wake of that event, as well as anti-SJW. People were threatening her son over this joke. While "you're just overreacting!" has long been used against minorities as a way of shutting them down, that doesn't mean it never has any legitimacy ever. While this case is a little extreme, it's not that out of the norm and it greatly showcases just what's wrong with SJWs (and more importantly, how they are different from SJAs and why they are so harmful - there were people who politely messaged her and asked her not to make that kind of joke again and explained why it was problematic - but they got drowned out in the vitriol, and now instead of having another ally who might've apologized for that joke or at least made sure to avoid them in the future, we have lost a powerful friend and have turned her into something approaching an enemy when it comes to social justice).

tl;dr - A lot of us are alienated by popular media. That doesn't mean we should be turning around and alienating everyone else, especially not from us.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

^ xInfinity

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[forgottenjester]

I think we should just, like, link to your post whenever people have questions about SJWs vs. SJAs. We could probably cut down on a lot of the wank.

(Also, I am just so very jealous or how very articulate you always are.)

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

I have an entire comm set aside, ready to launch at a moment's notice, about pursing the balance between advocating social justice without descending into SJW madness, especially in fandom. I've let it lie for a while because the idea seemed to get pretty negative reception at first and both sides of the debate seemed to have (relatively) calmed down a little bit and I don't want to add fuel to the fire, I want to add extinguisher to it. But if more of these secrets keep popping up and this level of debate comes back, I might just revive it and give it another go.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[ariakas]

as juvenile as it is, I can't exactly blame her for turning almost transphobic in the wake of that event

Eh, I don't think someone gets a free pass to hate and fear or "almost" hate and fear an entire subsection of humanity because of some jerks on the internet.

Otherwise, well said.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

They threatened her child over a stupid Justin Bieber joke.

Her kid.

That's really fucked up, and if you don't think that Grey was justified in being turned off by that large contingent of tumblr, you need to stop, and think about what you'd do to anyone who threatened someone you're close to.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

I don't think she deserves a pass to be transphobic. I'm just saying that most likely, she didn't have much experience with trans issues or interaction with (openly) trans people in her life. Then suddenly, a lot of people either directly from or connected to this subset of humanity were attacking her and threatening her loved ones. That's not a good first impression to go by, or second or tenth or hundredth one. She's not right in hating them, but she's not wrong in being scared of them either.

THAT is why I hate SJWs. We lose allies because of them, they turn potential allies into almost guaranteed enemies, especially during a time and stage when we could really all the allies we can get.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

no.

just. no.

also look up tone argument because jfc

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

"no"? Why not?

As for tone argument...something like this?

But anyway - I want to hear another side of the issue. Really. But I'm not a mind reader. For me to hear you, you've got to actually, y'know, say it (or, uh, type it in this case). Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you have a very good reason for saying "no. just. no." but I would like to know what that reason is before I concede or argue any points.

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[(Anonymous)]

"It's not my job to educate you" kills me. No, it isn't, but if you don't want to tell people what the fuck you're talking about, you lose the right to complain about them not reading your mind. Then again, I have autism and I love telling people about it if they ask (probably a symptom of the autism, but meh)...

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

Autism or not, telling people is good! The more people know, the better. :)

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[glo_unit]

I have to join the people who asked do you actually know if Grey DeLisle is actually and enemy of Trans rights or Transphobic?

Re: It's not the issues that are the problem

[nyxelestia]

For a while afterwards, she was posting a lot of things undermining social justice and gender issues in general, though admittedly (iirc) she posted only a few more transphobic things and then didn't really post much more about that specific subject since then.