fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2477 ]

Imagine for a moment that you run across this character bio.

She's an 18-year-old high school senior. She's taking three AP classes and makes honor roll every semester. She also meets with the science team once a week. She runs anywhere from three to fourteen miles a day, or much more if there's a marathon coming up. She's also in an inter-city soccer league. She spends her Sunday mornings sorting canned food and delivering it to the poor. She has a wide circle of friends, including a few who she makes an effort to include because nobody else will, as well as a few secret admirers. She also works as a camp counselor every summer, and little kids seem to just love her.

She has ADD, which went undiagnosed for a decade because it never affected her studies or social life. It just made her overly energetic at times, and the only real drawback of that was that it annoyed her parents. Her handwriting is abysmal, but luckily she lives in the dawning age of computers. And while she is what many would call attractive, her teeth are an orthodontic nightmare.

What would you think?

I don't know, seems like a normal enough person, bit of an overachiever, but decent enough.

I do know people like this is real life. They make me feel bad about myself, but I can't help but admire them anyway. In fic I might think they're a little too.

*much, because it's hard to show all that interwoven in the plot without sounding like a college application.

Sounds like a either a hardcore Sue or a Disney princess. Too many unrelated strengths that basically make her good at everything useful in the real world, and her "flaws" are...not. Though you didn't give much physical description. Any silky golden hair with natural highlights? ~~Or perhaps ebony black with purple streaks and red tips?~~

I dunno. Seems realistic enough irl but might be overly much in a character.

And the ADD part bugs me. The idea that ADHD doesn't effect a person at all except to have extra energy on some days...makes me think the person doesn't have ADHD at all.

Yeah exactly. Extra energy/hyperactivity is FAR from the only thing AD(H)D produces.

Hmm....well...there's a salvageable character in there somewhere I do believe but I would say there needs to be some serious alterations.

Cut down on extracurricular activities especially if she has ADD. As someone who might have it let me tell you what is most realistic is that she should get buried under the weight of all that fumble spectacularly or just dump a bunch of stuff(or maybe take up a hobby then get bored with it and drop it). ADD has more issues than that. It means you can't sit still, sometimes it makes people impulsive (I tended to be an impulsive shopper myself. Had so much trouble saving my money.), easily distracted. It would be hard for her to sit down and finish something.

One person (especially a teenager with ADD) can hardly do all that.

Handwriting still has an impact in the age of computers. Some people still have paper applications and it would be hard to get ajob if no one could read the handwriting.

The thing about flaws is that they have to come up in the story to be flaws otherwise they're just quirks. Being unable to sing would not be a good flaw for a fighting based manga character who never HAS to sing. Try giving her something to cause actual problems.

As for the teeth. Having something attractiveness about them or having them think they're unattractive when they're not are shallow flaws. Unless her teeth have some big part of the story, they're a 'distraction'.

I'd probably think the character could be promising if she was given some depth or more flaws. I'd guess that the creator is probably young and very shy unsure about giving their character flaws perhaps out of fear they won't be liked or something. Or they're trying to make a wish fulfillment character but polish them to not look like one.

A bit on the Mary Sue side but fixable if the author is willing to actually think about flaws and make her more of a well rounded character.

I'd say that's almost an American Sailor Moon, ha ha. If that's you, grats on being an anime heroine!

I would think "bullshit." Only very rare people can juggle all those activities, and someone with ADD most likely wouldn't be able to. Besides all that, though, I wouldn't want to read about that character--"pretty but with crooked teeth" is a cop out too.

What are you on about? She's a senior taking three AP classes--I took AP chemistry, AP calculus, and AP German my senior year, so I know that three AP classes are doable; some people take eight or nine over two years. She's in two sports and one non-sport extracurricular, plus a volunteer gig, and she has a summer job. That's actually a fairly modest slate for a high school senior these days, with college admissions so competitive.

Re: Poll

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-15 04:56 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Poll

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-15 05:10 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Poll

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-15 11:53 (UTC) - Expand

I think, "This profile is incomplete. It only talks about what she does and how she looks, and says nothing about her personality."

A lot of these seem more like 'flavour' for a character. Either make them big enough to affect the plot or her dialogue, or mention them only in passing (" Ugh, my braces keep getting food stuck in them! Now, can you help me with my application essay?").

I'd say to drop half of those traits, whichever are the less important. Then decide the the trait is for plot or character. Plot traits are made big; character traits are just brought up sometimes.

Even in real life, she sounds too busy. Very, very few people can pull off this much activity (plus ADD!) without burnout. If this girl is the main character, she'd end up pretty Sue-ish.

I feel like this doesn't give a very good run down of actual personality, just a list of stuff she does or is involved in.

I also don't think this character has ADD. Or that the author doesn't know what ADD actually is.

I honestly don't care about if a character is 'attractive', I want an actual description. Hair color, skin color, eye color, height, general looks. I dislike it when authors describe their characters as "attractive" because that could be anything and actually does very little to tell me what they look like.

The academic elements are fine (if a bit...farfetched in terms of where the hell does she find the time), because some people are like that irl, but when you throw ADD into the mix they become really unbelievable.

When you want to write a character with a mental disorder you really want to do research on how it works, because you are bond to step on real people's toes. It wouldn't be a disorder if it wasn't in some way disruptive to their life, and you want to show that. One, because it's interesting to see how a character navigates (or doesn't navigate) that problem, and two, because it's otherwise a tacked-on flaw. Flaws are supposed to stem from the character themselves, and a mental disorder isn't something that is their fault. It is perhaps an obstacle, but not something that they caused for themselves.

I'd also wonder if her teeth are such a nightmare, do they cause her harm, or does she feel self-conscious about them?

Hmm, there's waaaay too much goody-goody perfection going on there for me to take that character seriously. Even if it's entirely possible for such a person to exist, I'd personally find them really obnoxious if I knew them. Which is where the bio really fails, for me, with everybody loving her and there being no real downsides to her overachieving. If she had, like, an average amount of friends who were occasionally aggravated and intimidated by her, loved little kids but was hated by them to a one because she didn't have the knack for them that she liked to think she had, and was sometimes pushy, impulsive, and sanctimonious to the point of disaster, things like that, to balance out all the good shit, I would find her more believable. That's just me, I judge characters by how they manage their flaws, not how they revel in their awesomeness.

She sounds like a supporting character. If she was the protagonist, I think I'd make her secretly resent spending every Sunday that way (maybe her parents make her do it for their image) and that would probably be the main conflict, in the beginning. This is a pretty basic description and I think it all depends on what you do with her and what kind of story this is.

I'd think that you need to do some research, think about the deeper facets of your character, and then do a re-write.

First - three AP classes. It really depends on which ones you're taking and who the teachers are as to how time consuming they are. They may be weighted and graded on the same scale but they are definitely not all equal. It's definitely not impossible - and yes, I'd think she could make the honor roll - but it would require some organization on her part, especially with extracurriculars. This is unlikely to be the workload of an untreated ADD sufferer however. More on the ADD thing later.

Second - Science team may meet once a week for maintenance but they'd probably meet more more than once a week if they're prepping for a meet or science fair or competition. It takes at least an hour per meeting. And there's also a weekend commitment, especially for tournament-type things.

Third - How long this would take depends on the person but there are issues of time and health to consider. And I'm not just talking about the good stuff. Running is hard on your body. Also, training for marathons and taking part in marathons take time and money. And loads of traveling if she doesn't live in the 'right' part of the country.

Fourth - Soccer takes a lot of time too and also has traveling for tournaments and regular weekend commitments.

Fifth - Meals on Wheels/Holiday groceries take awhile and it's not just dumping a bunch of cans on a doorstep. Sorters are not always drivers - it's just more efficient that way. Frankly, she's unlikely to be a driver. If you're talking about working at a soup kitchen, that also takes a time commitment. Either way, it conflicts with her many, many weekend commitments. To write this more realistically, you might need to actually volunteer with at least one of these organizations.

Sixth - Being kind is one thing. Seeing worth where few do is another. Pity-friendship, however, is icky. So be careful that you don't fall into this. While we're discussing her relationships, 'secret admirers' are a bit dramatic. Could someone have a crush on her? Possibly. Also, she's so busy with her other commitments that it seems unlikely she'd have time for a wide circle of friends/boy or girlfriends. A few close ones, however, seems more likely.

Seventh - Being a camp counselor is fun! But there are a lot of responsibilities. And the kids don't all love the same counselors. Different strokes for different folks, you know?

Eighth - The ADD is not only highly unlikely but extremely unrealistic! DO RESEARCH ON THIS! But not tumblr-research! REAL research! For a good fictional account of ADHD, look into the Joey Pigza books. (I wish I could remember who wrote them off the top of my head.) Read a few teaching and psychology texts on it. The teaching ones will likely have examples from real life.

Ninth - She can't be an overachiever if she has truly abysmal handwriting simply because most teachers, especially honors or advanced place ones, wouldn't bother reading her work. They'd simply give her a nil or a rock bottom score and move on. Computers can only take you so far.

Tenth - I have no opinion on the teeth thing but wonder if it's necessary to your plot and characterization. Which, by the way, is my not so subtle transition to characterization.

Characterization: You've got an interesting slew of activities and social obligations for this character but she has no actual character. She needs a secret inner life, personal motivations, character traits. All of that overachieving could be the mark of someone who is ambitious or driven but why is she ambitious/driven? What's she planning to do with her life? (And this character would certainly have a plan.) Does she have dreams?

And she definitely needs actual flaws. Bad teeth are not a flaw or a character trait. They're simply a physical trait, like a weak chin or beady eyes that are too close together.

Despite the fact that I've written an epistle about your character sketch, I quite like the idea of an ordinary, overachieving girl-character. I think this has potential but it's an early draft, not a finished one.

Good luck!

TBH: If it were just the bio, I'd roll my eyes and thing "god, what a Mary Sue", and not bother to find out how the character is actually developed. Now, I did know a girl like this, she was in my class when I was studying Anthropology last year. EXACTLY LIKE THIS. Except for the ADD - DROP THE ADD, really, it doesn't work like that and it doesn't help anyone to be an overachiever. If you gave her ADD "to make them have a plethora of interests", I assure you: She'll end up dumping half of them. Take my word, I've been diagnosed with it.

So there's some wiggling room depending on how the development and actual treatment of the character inside her canon goes. Is this a character of yours? Are you looking for concrit?

NOW FOR STORY TIME! About this girl: ...she was deeply unhappy. Yes, she managed to do everything she planned to do, but was deathly scared of her grades failing, her "circle of friends" at university was more like a "circle of acquintances that barely tolerated her" (because she was kind of holier-than-thou when it came to studying) - her real friends were very scattered: some in the dojo she practiced kendo in, some internet friends, some childhood friends. She felt lonely inside. She knew she could be percieved as off-putting because of what she did and her behavior, so while she did know how to socialize it was always a mined camp for her. She never, ever, did anything that could be seen as "traditionally having fun" - even the Kendo she enjoyed so much involved a lot of discipline.

And by October (College here starts in March) she was a mess. One day I found her crying of pure frustration because she had 95% of the answers right instead of the 100% she wanted, and felt SO VERY LONELY and ashamed... all the class had completely bombed the test, but her amazing grade was the reason the Proffessor didn't lower the bar or made us take it again next week.

So I took her out to skip classes to the nearby mall and we spent a couple of hours there. I bought us something to drink that she could actually enjoy (bottled Cola de Mono from the supermarket on the first floor), it was the first time in her life she had a drink. We didn't get drunk or anything, that wasn't the idea - just a glass to help her physically release some stress, and then I disposed the bottle; and then I took her to the arcade in the uppermost floor to shoot some zombies.

After that we became closer and I tried to make her understand that her life shouldn't be exclusively dedicated to BEING THE VERY BEST OF THE BEST, or pleasing others, or helping them. That all of that was fine, but having some "me" time was a necessary thing too. That doing random things out of schedule because you get the urge to do something fun (from knitting to watching anime - seriously, it doesn't need to be ZOMG LET'S GO CLUBBING) is absolutely ok and not a sin.

She's at University of Bologna now, and it appears she's quite enjoying herself. She has the academical challenge she desperately needed, but is far away from the added parental pressure, and is fluent in Italian so she's fitting in with her classmates and roomates quite fine. She has been exploring a lot, so she has fun things to do that aren't college-related or require discipline (though she looked for a kendo dojo ASAP too), and started trying to learn how to cook Italian food for the pleasure of it. I'm quite glad for her :3

TL;DR: It's doable. It doesn't necessarily make the character a Mary Sue. It needs to be handled correctly and with consequences, though, because unless she's super-human; the moment her carefully planned schedule fails, or something goes wrong, she'll break down.

Edited 2013-10-15 03:51 (UTC)

Bingo. I too know someone like this--and she's not happy either. Or rather, she has sharp ups and downs, because she's passionately interested and enthusiastic about a lot of things, but on the other hand she's a people-pleaser who can't say no either to an activity or to people (usually family members) who expect her to do things for them. And she's been basically taught to measure her worth by how little sleep she gets. Eventually she gets overextended and stressed, and comes unglued--it's a repetitive cycle.

Re: TL;DR answer

lynx - 2013-10-15 05:30 (UTC) - Expand

She sounds a bit flat and artificial, tbh. Honor roll student who's athletic, volunteers for charities and loves working with kids? Ehhhhh. All the "flaws" you've given her are trivial. They feel like penny ante stuff you threw in to try and balance out all the superlative traits she has. It's kind of boring because she just doesn't sound like a real person.

Yeah, no. ADD isn't just a cause for energy or hyperactivity, and I honestly have no idea how it can go undetected for a decade, especially in the kid/teen years. And it WILL affect studies unless you religiously stay on the medication and that's not gonna be the case if it was 'undetected.' Not only that, but it does a lot more than 'annoy the parents.' You get put in special ed. classes and bullied for it.

Sorry, I just get really pissed off (as someone with ADHD) when people obviously don't fucking understand the disorder at all. It should go with any disorder or illness really - if this is your character anon, do your research because you/whoever wrote this painfully, obviously hasn't.

Everything else? Too perfect and too much. Besides the ADD thing, if handwriting and teeth are her only real problems, then that makes for a not very interesting character.

Re: Poll

elialshadowpine - 2013-10-17 17:07 (UTC) - Expand

I'd say she was created by someone young and/or someone new to writing.

Either drop the ADD or do actual research on it, so that you can present accurately instead of using it in a way that comes off very much as you [general]going "Magic!" and completely ignoring what the actual thing is like.

I'd also say that, the ADD badness aside, the character just doesn't have a whole lot that would lend itself to conflict, based on what you've shown us. It's possible she *could*, depending on how she was handled...but based on this? I'm not sure that would happen, particularly since conflict [or at least good conflict] generally comes from a character having to confront/deal with their flaws...and this character just doesn't seem to have any. The few that are, are really shallow - to the point of it literally being her appearance in one case - and those being minor.

tl;dr:

Re: Poll

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-15 05:03 (UTC) - Expand

I'd think "Look, someone took Rainbow Dash, Twilight and Fluttershy and morphed them into one human person".

But I agree with others: She seems like either the friend-with-a-heart-of-gold supporting character or the too-perfect-and-good-to-be-true caracter the more plain, less successful main character might be envious of.

I would think "why are they telling me all of this? If it isn't important enough to show me in the story or whatever, why do they think I want to know so much about her?"

[ SECRET POST #2477 ]

Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Character analysis ...my favorite hobby

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll - You need a re-write. I like your idea but I'm blunt...

TL;DR answer

Re: TL;DR answer

Re: TL;DR answer

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll

Re: Poll