[ SECRET POST #2573 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2573 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 073 secrets from Secret Submission Post #368.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

"Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease."

[agentcthulhu]

The follow comment contains references to child sexual abuse.

Please expand to read quotes/discussion.

"Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[agentcthulhu]

The secret about Allen Ginsberg and NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association) yesterday reminded me of this article I read last month. Here are some copy and pasted passages on the biological characteristics of pedophiles and statistics of occurrences.

"Dr. James Cantor of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health has spent the last decade on research suggesting that pedophilia is a deep-rooted, unchangeable predisposition.

"Cantor’s team has found that pedophiles share a number of physical characteristics, including differences in brain wiring.

"His team has found that pedophiles share many physical characteristics. They are shorter, on average, than other men. They are three times more likely to be left-handed or ambidextrous. Their IQs are about 10 to 15 points lower. Finally, they are more prone to childhood head injuries — which Cantor chalks up to a natural clumsiness.

"Cantor, an internationally respected clinical psychologist, has also conducted studies with sex offenders using MRIs. He has found they have less white matter — the connective tissue that carries messages to other parts of the brain — than other types of criminal offenders.

"The evidence suggests pedophilia results from atypical wiring in the brain. Cantor calls it “cross-wiring”: the stimuli that usually evoke nurturing and protective reactions in adults is instead evoking sexual reactions in pedophiles.

"Similar experiments are being conducted across the globe, most notably at Berlin’s Institute of Sexology and Sexual Medicine, but Cantor’s research has greatly influenced the view among researchers that pedophilia has a biological basis.

"Pedophiles are thought to be overwhelmingly men. About a third of those men prefer boys, about a third prefer girls, and a third will be attracted to both.

"It’s now thought that about 1 to 5 per cent of men are pedophiles, meaning they are primarily attracted to children."

There is also an article from earlier in 2013 where it has more information on pedophiles who've not committed sexual abuse toward children and support for individuals who find they have such feelings for children. The second article also mentions that

policymakers and the public refuse to entertain the politically blasphemous idea that not all paedophiles are child sex offenders, and that not all child sex offenders are paedophiles.

Likewise, the first article contained a similar passage:

“Not all sex offenders who target children are pedophiles, and not all pedophiles are sex offenders,” says Dr. Michael Seto, a pedophilia expert and forensic researcher with the Royal Ottawa Health Care Group.

Seto, a former colleague of Cantor’s at CAMH, has found that only 50 to 60 per cent of convicted sex offenders are pedophiles. The rest have sexually abused children for reasons beyond attraction — personality disorders, chaotic households or violent impulses.

What are your thoughts on pedophilia as a sexual orientation, like homosexuality and heterosexuality? There are people who realize they need professional intervention to manage their attraction to children. Do you think removing social stigma* from everyone who are sexually attracted to children will help these people get the help they need? Will therapy be enough to prevent the 50-60% of offenders who are actually pedophiles from committing abuse? Is this shift in perception even possible in the first place?

*There's a difference between people who have thoughts about an action and people who take steps to commit the action. I do not condone child abuse or sexual abuse. They are not acceptable actions, ever.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[dreemyweird]

Paedophilia is not a sexual orientation because sexual orientations tell you about the kinds of sexes/genders you are attracted/not attracted to, not about anything else.

The fact that paedophilia is (partially?) genetically determined does not make it a sexual orientation. It makes it a genetic disorder. If somebody were to discover with certainty that schizophrenia occurs only in people with certain gene combinations, it would not have meant that schizophrenia is suddenly and magically a normal thing instead of a mental illness.

If the research you are citing is trustworthy and all the similar researches shall give about the same results, I'm perfectly fine with thinking that paedophilic behaviour is a result of the combination of a certain genetic disorder and the individual's willingness to commit such a crime. Should help be provided to such individuals? Of course. Should they be considered "normal"? No. The "social stigma" can be removed no more than in the case of mentally ill people who tend to behave violently and are a danger to those around them. It is not a matter of stigma so much as it is a very real problem that has to be dealt with in order to remove the danger. That is to say, while of course people shouldn't be judged for the behavioural tendencies they are born with, nobody is going to be comfortable around potentially violent folks. We already have a precedent, in this sense paedophilia as a biological trait is nothing new. Treat them as we would treat any other person with a disorder of a similar kind.

The degree to which paedophilia should be perceived as such a disorder (and the danger "potential paedophiles" present to the society) is a matter of further research, though. It's not like I'm qualified to say anything meaningful on the matter.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[sarillia]

These are pretty much my thoughts too. I wish people would stop trying to turn things into sexual orientations when they aren't. I agree with the rest too but this is just what I'm stuck on because it's more relevant to my life.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[agentcthulhu]

Paedophilia is not a sexual orientation because sexual orientations tell you about the kinds of sexes/genders you are attracted/not attracted to, not about anything else.

This. Thank you for hitting the nail on the head and put to words the biggest problem I had with the first article. The researcher's definition for sexual orientation seem to be "something that induces sexual arousement in a person." By that definition, what is the difference between sexual orientation and sexual fetish? If someone is aroused by people's bare feet, that person's sexual orientation does not magically become podophilia.

[W]hile of course people shouldn't be judged for the behavioural tendencies they are born with, nobody is going to be comfortable around potentially violent folks. We already have a precedent, in this sense paedophilia as a biological trait is nothing new. Treat them as we would treat any other person with a disorder of a similar kind.

That's a reasonable proposal, treating violent pedophiles like other violently disturbed persons.

I also agree with your last line. Hopefully, with more research and understanding of pedophilic behavior and causes, it will become acceptable for people to admit to being pedophiles and seek help to manage their actions.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

I don't quite understand the conclusion of this study, why would finding commonalities and a possible genetic explanation make it an orientation rather than a disease or disorder?

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

Exactly!

Not to mention - this is only ONE study, based on the opinions of ONE clinical psychologist.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[agentcthulhu]

Agreed.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

I believe pedophilia is a mental illness/disease/whatever rather than an actual sexual orientation because I believe that anyone who has genuine urges to be with live children in a sexual manner should have access to treatment/therapy to control said urges while people who are, for example, hetero or homosexual are free to act on their sexual and romantic desires with consenting adults. I wish people were more comfortable getting the help they need but I do not at all think pedophilia is on the same level as hetero/homo/bisexuality

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[diet_poison]

It probably is one???? but it doesn't really matter because sex with kids hurts kids, full stop, and should not be allowed

and it will never make sense to put it on the same social level with homosexuality, etc. because it's NOT something that should be acted upon, ever.

ETA: I don't really care what you call it. "disorder" is actually probably a better word. my point is that yes, I think some people experience those attractions even if they don't want to, and I hope they all get help, but it should never ever be acceptable to act upon those desires.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[caerbannog]

+2

Frankly I don't care if it's a disease or orientation or whathaveyou. It will never be on the same level as adult sexuality. There's no proper consent or understanding. A person is hurting a child. Struggle and get help for it all you want, but once you start to act upon it all my sympathies are gone.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[agentcthulhu]

The question of pedophilia as a orientation or disorder has already be addressed by other users so I will not repeat the argument here. Let's talk about the social acceptability of admitting to being a pedophile instead.

The fact that the people on the receiving end of the sexual attraction cannot give consent is probably the biggest roadblock to pedophilia gaining widespread acceptance. However, I do think admitting to having said attraction should not automatically mean being put into a mental hospital or being segregated from society at large. I hope, with more people understanding that some pedophiles may have a medical basis for being the way they are, it will be more acceptable for people who do need help not hurting children to get the assistance they require.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

I think people should understand that having those desires without acting on them doesn't make you a criminal, but I don't think it should be treated on the same level as homosexuality, because homosexuality isn't something you need to cure or try to prevent acting on. Pedophilia is because, well, there's no way you can act on that without hurting someone and committing a crime.

Pedophilia has been treated differently across cultures and time periods so I do think it's possible to change people's perceptions to change, but it would probably require a huge cultural shift in general.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

That research makes it sound like a disease/disorder/medical condition, though?

I'm not sure stigma ever really helps anything, at least stigma about things people can't help. I do believe that with culture as it stands today, pedophiles who successfully abstain from hurting anyone would probably be afraid to seek treatment, because that would mean admitting their condition, and that condition is seen as about the worst thing ever.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

NO. Just. No. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with age. Mentally deranged people like to spout off about it being an orientation as a way to excuse their sick desires. It's a mental illness and should be treated as such.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[ill_omened]

It can be both things.

It's a sexuality, and it's also a mental illness (because it is disordered to the point that it affects the life of anyone effected)

I find these semantic word games in which if you don't continually claim something is only and solely the worst thing ever that means you're saying acting on it is okay.

Grow up anon.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

I always thought NAMBLA was made up by south park. I'm less than happy that they are a real thing.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

am I the only one getting an MRA vibe from this bullshit?

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

yes

jesus christ get out you dumb hysteric fuck

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

...because only men are pedophiles? what

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

would it be possible at all for you to go 24 hours without blathering about MRAs?

also: yes you are, what the fuck

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[darkmanifest]

I...can't say that I care so long as they either A) 100% successfully control the urge to participate in the abuse of children (this includes consuming pornography of real children), or B) are denied access to children, whether in prison or a psychiatric facility, if they can't control the urge. Whether it's an orientation or an illness, it's dangerous to others when expressed and needs to be restrained, unlike orientations between consenting adults or non-violent illnesses. How it's restrained doesn't matter, so long as it's humane and effective.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[dethtoll]

Sounds like a flimsy justification for scumbags to scumbag. Nope. Rocket them to the sun, thanks.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

Good thing what you think it sounds like doesn't matter, because there's a very large body of work indicating it's the truth against angry manchildren like you.

Re: "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disease." - quotes

[(Anonymous)]

Sticky question. The generally-accepted definition of 'orientation' seems to be that it's directly related to the gender of those persons to whom one is attracted. To call pedophilia an orientation, we'd have to amend that definition to include anyone (or, by extension, anything) to whom or to which one is attracted.

Which, in theory, could be done; the concept was invented by humans, and just as we are currently in the process of establishing as a society that there is more than one orientation that it's okay to have, we could also decide at some future date that there are multiple ones that are okay and also some others that are not, using additional variables like the object's ability to give consent to decide where the line should be drawn.

I doubt it would happen in the foreseeable future, though, since people who've fought to have their own orientations recognized and accepted are understandably very protective of the concept. It would also be a potential foot in the door for pedophiles trying to get their behavior accepted too, which is a completely abhorrent idea to pretty much everybody else.