[ SECRET POST #2688 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2688 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


__________________________________________________



02.
[Frozen]


__________________________________________________



03.
[Criminal Minds, Elle Greenaway]


__________________________________________________



04.
[Utopia]


__________________________________________________



05.
[Prison Architect]


__________________________________________________



06.
[One Piece]


__________________________________________________



07.
[Orphan Black]


__________________________________________________



08.
[Craig Ferguson]


__________________________________________________



09.
[Sarah Rees Brennan]


__________________________________________________



10.
[Knights of Sidonia]


__________________________________________________



11.
[Star Trek: The Next Generation]










Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 037 secrets from Secret Submission Post #384.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

9/11 culture change?

[diet_poison]

So yesterday on a thread that was originally about something totally unrelated an anon made a comment about 9/11, and the culture being really different before - something like the culture and values pre-9/11 were completely wiped out "within a week" after the event.

That anon never got back to me when I asked them to clarify, probably because it was late. I have never heard of this sort of view before, and was wondering if anyone could explain what they meant, and if they agree? (I was 11 at the time, so my perspective isn't terribly good for this.)

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[(Anonymous)]

US become over patriotic. We slowly gave away freedom for "protection". And gas prices went up. :|

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[(Anonymous)]

and airport security became the mess it is today

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[diet_poison]

This is definitely true, but was there really zero trace of that before? And all traces of our previous culture "vanishing"? Because that is literally what the anon said. It seemed really odd.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[(Anonymous)]

But would you say that it is like that today? I certainly agree these things were true, but I get the feeling that the US is at least coming down on being overly patriotic, but then again it might be where I go on the internet.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[chardmonster]

Okay, how do I put this. I was almost 16 on 9/11-so old enough to see what was going on around me. I was reading newspapers, watching adult movies, etc.

A lot of the people on the internet claiming that culture was dramatically different before 9/11, that things changed "within a week" after the event, are probably considerably younger than me. That anon was likely considerably younger than you. And we live in a culture drenched in an artificially fast nostalgia cycle. That, and frankly they were raised on propaganda. They believe everything is different because the dominant narrative is that everything was different, because that sells.

The change was no more dramatic than the change between the 1980s and the 1990s.

You know what actually changed things? The increased spread of the internet. Smartphones. Iraq and Afghanistan, and then only after that had gone on for a long time. Not 9/11.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[diet_poison]

I'm honestly surprised that someone who wasn't old enough to actually remember clearly would make a claim like that. Not saying I doubt you, I just tend to give people the benefit of the doubt...you're probably right.

I definitely do not trust my own perspective on this. I was in 5th grade and fairly unaware of culture even for a kid.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[ariakas]

9/11 set the events in motion that made those changes as a result of "Iraq and Afghanistan" absolutely inevitable. I was older than you and I saw the sea change almost immediately, though its effects wouldn't be fully felt for a few years, they were entirely predictable. And they were different from what had been, and the direction things had been going, up to that point.

Of course things dramatically changed between the 1980s and the 1990s, too, because of the end of the Soviet Union. "Things also changed dramatically at another time because of different events" does not mean things did not change dramatically as a result of 9/11.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[ariakas]

There was a lot of positivity in the 90s, particularly about the future, that vanished almost overnight after 9/11. I remember people seriously discussing actionable solutions to global conflicts that involved dialogue or UN intervention at most. There was debate in my church community as to whether or not the the "thousand years of peace" in Revelations had finally arrived/was soon to arrive.

Even as a teenager I remember that I knew that we as a society would have to make a choice: we could rise above the tragedy and keep going along the same path, or we could let it defeat us and give in to exactly what it was intended to accomplish, going to war for revenge and sacrificing freedoms out of fear. But even at eighteen goddamned years old I knew that there were too many vested interests in the latter outcome for that not to be the path chosen.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[diet_poison]

:(

you're so right, though, about the path chosen. people can be so short-sighted.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

The thousand years of peace is supposed to be after the Second Coming, which makes me wonder if people in your church were saying 9/11 was Judgement Day as well.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[mekkio]

The one of the only things I can think of is the cultural shift from pop culture villains. Before 9/11 our villains in US movies and shows were Eastern European, Russian. Usually, KGB or ex-KGB after the fall of USSR. But it was Cold War, Cold War, Cold War and those who are trying bring back the Cold War. After 9/11 the pop culture to go villain was the Middle Eastern terrorists. Or if it was not directly a Middle Eastern terrorist, it was some guy who can be traced by to Middle Eastern terrorists.

Are you sure?

[chardmonster]

Are you really sure



Middle Eastern terrorists weren't a thing before 9/11

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[(Anonymous)]

As someone who lives outside of the US, who is exposed to a lot of US media, yes, there is definitely a marked change in the villians.

I watched a movie at the cinemas a few months ago (can't remember the name of it, but it starred the guy who played Kirk in the Star Trek reboot), and the main villian was a Commie Russian.

I was struck by how dated it felt to have an evil Russian villian, because I'm now more used to Middle Eastern terrorist villians.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[(Anonymous)]

I don't remember the culture before well enough to say, being that I was 11.

But you had a culture that was already rapidly changing, and that has continued changing for reasons unrelated to 9/11 since then, as technology and the Internet have developed and a million other things have gone on. So it's hard for me to imagine that there was this really dramatic overnight change in the culture specifically because of 9/11, and it also doesn't tally with my recollections.

Maybe if you're just talking about security and foreign policy, but even then, it was never an entire change.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[diet_poison]

You're not the first person to mention the internet getting big around the same time, and I think there's a lot of merit to that. I agree, from what I know, that that's had a larger effect on the overall culture.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[ariakas]

The actual change itself wasn't "overnight" but events that led to the changes over the decade or so to come were set in place virtually overnight, yes.

The internet had been around loooooong before 9/11; there are many different ways the introduction of those technologies could have changed society, but the War on Terror dramatically influenced the changes that did take place.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[feotakahari]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but before 9/11, I don't think it was acceptable to show protagonists who were supposed to be likable torturing people on primetime television.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[(Anonymous)]

Well, for one thing, wasn't 24 already in development before 9/11? I don't know when any creative decisions were made about Jack Bauer torturing people, but they made the pilot in March 2001 and started production for the series as a whole in July of that year.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[chardmonster]

You think it suddenly was right after 9/11? You think the actual wars in Iraq and Afghanistan had nothing to do with that? You think television was wonderful and not weirdly violent before 2001?

Also, bullshit.



There was plenty of torture on television.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[a_potato]

Man, it's been hard coming up with a response to this.

There are definitely some things that changed. Our culture is far more paranoid and security-oriented than it was prior to the attacks, and its outlook is also quite a bit bleaker (although the latter is, of course, partially due to the state of economy over the past six years). I encountered far more people who were willing to sacrifice their freedoms in the years immediately following 9/11 than I had in the years preceding, and I still do.

That said, there are changes that only appear to have taken place, or that can be attributed to other factors, many of which have been mentioned by others in this thread. There are narratives that just...shifted. America was already focused on its military, for example; we just had a new enemy and a new set of reasons for it. Yes, defense spending has increased dramatically; and yes, patriotism has been explicitly tied to support of the military. But the Cold War had ended such a short time that I think it's more a case of us reverting than changing.

As far as fandom goes, I saw very little change that didn't have more to do with the development of new platforms; higher internet speeds; and expanding internet access. My experience changed far more when people started migrating from fan sites and forums to blogging sites than when 9/11 happened.

All of that said, I do want to add the caveat that I was 15 when 9/11 happened, and although I had been online and active in fandom for years (oh parents, you were so naive), I also was still kind of young. There may be some things that escaped my notice as a result of that.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[diet_poison]

15 is a helluva lot more aware than 11, lol. And the more I go through this thread, the more it comes down to sacrificing freedom, privacy, and information for "security", and that makes me sad, especially because some of the repercussions of that can still be clearly seen today.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[(Anonymous)]

Before 9/11 things were more, mmm, care free I guess? We weren't at war, the economy wasn't in shambles, there wasn't this huge 'terrorist fear' hanging over everything. It was the end of a false sense of security, and then we lost so much privacy.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[(Anonymous)]

To say that the economy wasn't in shambles isn't completely true. We'd just come off the first wave of the popped tech bubbles, and there were problems lurking in the background (as pointed out in http://cber.uky.edu/Downloads/Waller02.htm). I'd say 9/11 put economic problems into sharper focus in some ways, but the economic news wasn't particularly great before that time. Also, some people may argue that privacy was being eroded in the late 90s, a point that contributed to the shit show known as the Lewinksy affair/investigation.

With all that said, I totally agree your statement about it being the end of a false sense of security. A lot of people said at the time that it was the end of innocence, but even at 17 I knew that was bullshit. Hell, my friend Mike and I discussed that off and on after 9/11.

Re: 9/11 culture change?

[nyxelestia]

If you've seen Captain America 2, a lot of people have commented that it's like the superhero version of 9/11 and Patriot Act.

Simplified version is single, sudden, and terrible event happened --> security becomes an obsession, to the point of sacrificing freedom (a lot of civil liberties) in exchange for security and protection. Everyone becomes extremely reactionary, a shit ton of the military conflicts of the last decade and a half have been either directly or indirectly justified by 9/11, etc.

It was especially shocking/impactful because of the contrast. The 1990's were seen as a time of relative peace and prosperity - the Cold War was over, the UN was actually doing things, and there was a lot of economic growth. Compared to the previous few decades, we were peaceful and rich. Then 9/11 happens, and suddenly the whole world is in constant fear of terrorism, we get caught up until multiple wars/military conflicts, and our economy goes on a roller coaster ride that ends with a barely-controlled crash-and-burn economic bubble burst.