fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4625 ]

If I got to life my live over again, I wouldn't get married. Don't get me wrong, I love my husband very much. I think divorcing would make me very unhappy, not to mention put us both in a precarious financial situation. But while he's my best friend in the whole world and I feel like I can talk to him about almost anything, he's still plagued by these shitty manchild issues. It's not malicious or spiteful, he's just oblivious to how much work I do around the house and how little work he does in comparison.

It's not just about dividing up chores, it's... really hard to explain. I'm female, I was raised and socialized to be helpful and considerate like it's second nature. I don't make a mess for other people or cause them inconvenience if I can help it, and if I do, I apologize and try to make amends. He doesn't. He's not even aware of the billion little things he does that makes my life just a fraction harder when it doesn't need to be. To him it's just that he forgot to put his dirty plate in the kitchen sink. To me, it's infuriating because *I* do all the cooking and 80% of the dish washing. He'll do it if he's got the day off or if he's not too busy playing computer games. I do it regardless of whether or not I'm tired, feeling sick, or if there's something else I'd rather be doing because that's how adulthood works, right?

He'll literally sit there and watch me work (because I'm so CUTE he HAS to watch me!) and not lift a goddamn finger to help because it doesn't occur to him to pitch in. He'll do it if I ask, but incompetently. Before you ask, no, I don't think it's on purpose. He just literally cannot look at a situation and figure out the most efficient way to do something, so he'll just half-ass it and be okay with that even if it means taking forever to do it or making a bigger mess. He'll make himself toast and leave crumbs all over the counter, even when we have an ant problem. I'll remind him to take a damp sponge and clean up after himself and he's like, "Oh yeah of course" but he'll forget. He always forgets. He's oh so agreeable when I remind him about stuff but it's in one ear and out the other. He loves me, so so much. But often, it feels like he doesn't really see me as a person. He's hurt and flabbergasted when I said I felt like his unpaid housekeeper. He cries. Then he does the dishes conscientiously and is suuuuuuuper considerate for 2-3 days and goes right back to his old ways. Did I mention that it took years to train him to shower regularly and brush his teeth? He always "didn't really need to" (bullshiiiiiiiit he stank) or "was too tired" (but not too tired to game for 2 hours before bedtime) and felt like personal hygiene was optional.

I shouldn't have gotten married right out of college. I should've developed my own career and independence first, THEN decided if I wanted to put up with that shit for the rest of my life. I admit, I'm a little bit of a control freak about some things. If a task is a chore, I want it done quickly and efficiently and I hate it when other people dawdle and make a mess out of things. I should live alone, in a small apartment, with a cat.

And frankly, age and experience and the world we live in has taught me to kinda hate men. Even the best of them are sort of... crappy? Emotionally stunted and raised by shitty mothers who never taught them to pull their own weight around the house, I guess? That's just bullshit. My advice to younger, single women - stay single unless you're really fucking sure. Not just in love, I mean absolutely sure you're marrying a mature adult who can take care of himself and doesn't need Mommy 2.0 to marry. And even then, work so you're financially independent and make yourself an escape plan, just in case.

I'm sorry, anon. Marriage is really a lottery. "Come live with me and you'll know me" is a Narnian proverb but it's fully applicable IRL.

I kicked my husband out for other issues - he could clean like a pro but he was an arse in other ways. You know what? I love living alone.

I hope you get to a place where you can be happy.

at least live together before you get married. You get to really know eachother in a way you don't when you're just dating. I had a terrible experience w/ my crazy, abusive first boyfriend but I'm so glad I just lived with him and did NOT marry him!

I'm so sorry you're dealing with that, anon. I have a friend who got married when she was twenty and her husband sounds similar to yours. She married him after knowing him for a few months and decided to get hitched because she thought she'd never find anyone better and wanted children. She has a beautiful little girl, but never finished college and, despite working more hours than her husband, she does the vast majority of the housework and child-rearing. Apparently, he's never changed his daughter's diaper or given her a bath. He just wants to do the "fun" parenting. I know it drives her insane because she vents all her frustrations out to me, but I honestly don't know what advice to give her. I did suggest maybe couples therapy, but she shot that down on the grounds that he'd refuse to go.

I will say that, out of all my married friends, she seems to be the only one who has such extreme problems with her spouse. My other friends do have little complaints about their husbands, but from what they've said, it sounds like they all pull their own weight and don't expect to be waited on hand and foot. They all got married way later than my other friend though.

Apparently, he's never changed his daughter's diaper or given her a bath.

Yeeeeeeeah, that's bullshit, right there. No way would I let any husband of mine get a pass on that. God, my dad did that for me and my sister, and this was back in the '80s. I remember my mom talking about how her co-workers seemed genuinely surprised that my dad helped out with me and my sister, because that just wasn't what guys did. My mom was like, "Well, he's their DAD, so...".

I'm sorry your friend's having so much stress with her husband. I hope she does find a solution to her problems with him, and hopefully he'll grow up and do his part, too. I'm going to be 35 in about a month and I'm not married, but if I ever do get married, I definitely want a relationship like the sort you mention your other friends having.

Yup. I have a lot of issues with my dad, but this is not one of them. He always carried his share of the load. They split things fairly evenly. And, in fact, while my dad was in seminary and my mom was working full time plus to support us all, he was actually doing most of the house stuff and taking care of us. They still split the chores fairly evenly.

ayrt - Ugh, that's awful and I'm so sorry for your friend. It sounds like she married a real asshole. I'm not sure couples therapy can fix that, though.

Mine isn't that bad and he doesn't expect to be waited on hand and foot, but... he doesn't seem to realize that I do bunches of little things to make his/our life easier and nicer. He doesn't. He just bulldozes through life doing stuff without giving any thought to whether or not it inconveniences anyone else. He appreciates the little things I do, but it doesn't occur to him to reciprocate most of the time. Over the years, he's gradually learned to do a few things like wash the dishes without asking, asking if I'd like a cup of tea, etc. But for th emost part he acts like he lives alone and my needs and wishes don't need to be consulted for anything. We don't have kids, for which I'm grateful because I'd probably end up doing most of the childcare, too.

Maybe consider reading/having him read this? She divorced me because I left dishes by the sink (https://mustbethistalltoride.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/) and You Should've Asked (https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/)

I've read the first one before and thought it was really on target. I'm hesitant to send it to him because he tends to have this panicky emotional reaction like "OH NOOOOO YOU'RE GOING TO DIVORCE MEEEEEE" and get really upset, followed by several days of better behavior, then back to the same old bullshit. He cares in the moment, he just can't sustain it.

He can sustain it. He doesn't want to.

Because to sustain it that would take effort and means he's got to change and why bother when you'll pick up his slack? I'm sure he loves you, but he doesn't seem to respect you or your time very much.

Yep to all that. He doesn't respect my time OR the work I do. It hurts his feelings when I point this out to him because he absolutely does not think of himself this way, but I've told him that his actions tell a different story than his words.

"He'll literally sit there and watch me work (because I'm so CUTE he HAS to watch me!)"

That would drive me nuts. I HATE going about my life with an audience.

"If a task is a chore, I want it done quickly and efficiently and I hate it when other people dawdle and make a mess out of things."

This is one where I might have issues similar to your husband. I get tired of doing the same thing after a while, so I don't like start a chore if that means having to commit to finishing it. I'm the type who will do a few dishes and then go off to do something else.

My mom is a very "start what you finish" person, and we've had arguments about it.

So I usually do chores while she's out - I'll do half the dishes, go do something else (another chore, or just mess around online or whatever) and then a few minutes later I'll go do the rest of the dishes. And all she knows is that they're done when she gets back. No stress.

I don't know if something like that will work for you guys, given the thing of making the mess worse sometimes, but possibly could in regard to the issue of not doing things the efficient way.

I used to not mind it, but now I hate it. I hate doing all the work while he sits there (or worse, gets in the way) and watches me without helping. I used to ask him nicely to please step out of the way, or to please go to the living room while I finish up and he'd sort of mock-protest about how he just wants to waaaaatch me. Now I get snarly and tell him to stop staring or GTFO.

The thing with the dishes is that we don't have a large kitchen or a lot of dishes/pots. So I need the dishes done and the sink empty BEFORE I start food preparation. My husband has the bad habit of starting them, then wandering off leaving ME with a sink of greasy cold water and some dirty dishes. Or he'll want to wash them when I start doing food prep, which means we're both crowding into the same space, with me trying to find utensils and pots that are still dirty, etc. I had to tell him many, many times that if he hasn't done the dishes by the time I need to get dinner ready, he can't start them. I'LL do them, because I need it done fast and I don't want to constantly trip over someone else trying to do them. I told him that this is fine, I don't mind washing dishes but what I'd really like is for HIM to EMPTY the dish rack and put them away. He can do this early in the morning when I'm asleep, because he wakes up a lot earlier than I do.

What did I get? Years of him never emptying the dish rack and then wanting to start doing dishes at 5:30pm while I'm preparing dinner, then looking all confused when I snap at him and tell him to GTFO. We've fallen into a pattern where I end up doing everything because it pisses me off to have his clumsy, slow "help".

I'm sorry you're dealing with that. I agree that men are sort of crappy...from what I've seen, all men are like that to a certain extent. My mom has some of those exact same complaints about my dad and the ladies at work all have them about their husbands. A friend of mine who's engaged was recently complaining about her fiance doing those same sorts of things, and I was just like...and you want to marry this dude why, exactly? (Obviously I didn't say that to her, though!)

But yeah. I'm a millenial woman and have zero interest in getting married. I live by myself and love that I don't have to take care of a boyfriend/husband. Occasionally I feel bad about myself (people think you're weird or that there's something wrong with you if you're a young woman who isn't itching to find a boyfriend/get married) but when I stop to think about whether I actually WANT one, I realize I don't. The downsides way outweigh the positives for me.

I think it's a major flaw in how boys are raised and men are socialized, really. Most people don't even recognize it as a deficiency because it's "normal" for men to not do housework, or to do it sloppily. I think we're becoming more aware of this as a society and it's becoming less acceptable, but there are still tons and tons of men who haven't gotten with the times.

Kudos to you for that realization. Honestly, I think more people would feel that way if they stopped to really think about it and not do what society expects of them.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Maybe show him this post, sit his ass down and tell him how you feel. And, oh, he cries at you, shit changes for a couple of days and then goes back like it was? Yeah, no. Manipulative as fuck. He does a wack ass job cleaning because he knows you'll do it. He cries so you'll feel bad about calling him out on his shit. You ARE his Mommy 2.0. I wish had better advice besides "leave him and be happy ".

He knows how I feel. We've had regular fights about this for several years now and just had one tonight. He's gotten to the point where he realizes there's a monumental fuck up in how he approaches the world, but he lacks self awareness and can't seem to identify the issue and self correct in the moment and I'm too fucking tired to do it for him.

TBH, if I won a billion dollars in the lottery I'd probably stay married but live in separate houses.

What anon above said. He's manipulating you and he *knows* it, to an extent. This is just like my ex, who never did chores or cleaning or anything for the 30 years we were married, because a) i would do it and b) it was easier to do it than fight. Now that he's remarried? Suddenly he knows how to do laundry and clean and shop and whatnot.

Yeah, he needs a real 'come to Jesus' moment and you need to set hard boundaries re: chores/housework and stick to 'em.

And however difficult it would be, sometimes a divorce is the best thing. I know i'm much happier now than I was.

Sometimes I'm tempted to pack my shit and go back to my parents' house for a couple weeks and let him fend for himself. I've told him he's damaged and continues to damage our marriage. I don't know if he really gets that.

To be frank, he probably never will, because you let him basically run over you and guilt you. NOT saying 'this is all on you' but he *will* continue to do as little as you let him get away with.

Those articles anon mentioned are a good thing for him to read, and maybe they will help. Maybe a couple weeks apart will help. Maybe you'll realize you like it better on your own.

I hope you can find a way forward that makes you happy, Anon.

I've let him get away with shit for far too long, because I told myself that I loved him and that I didn't want him to feel bad. I'm done with that and told him so. I hope he feels like shit.

Re: Non-fandom secrets

tabaqui - 2019-09-05 03:02 (UTC) - Expand

Have you come across the giant Metafilter thread on unpaid emotional labor?
https://www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor
There's a condensed version here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0UUYL6kaNeBTDBRbkJkeUtabEk/view

And one more thing: is he capable of adulting at work?

You say a divorce would make you unhappy.

But another way to look at this is, this problem is already affecting you. Enough to make you go on a forum and post things like, "even the best of men are crappy," even though surely there must be men out there who can be functional adults and partners, or happy couples with stay-at-home dads would be fictional, clean freak men wouldn't exist, and every gay male couple would need women around living with them 24/7.

In b4 "lol #notallmen!!!" because that's actually not my point here.

My point is, having to deal with this behavior all the time from your husband is might be affecting you more than you realize, in that it's turning you into the kind of person you probably don't want to be, either. Someone who feels burdened by being Mommy 2.0, who doesn't believe people could be better, who thinks they should be forever alone with a cat, and thinks half the world is at best crappy. That's not what you wanted to be, is it? And staying married will probably push you further down that path.

If it took you years to get him to shower regularly, which is something I promise you most normal married men know how to do, your husband sounds especially worse than most. So does this have hope? How much will you change and become embittered in the years it might take for something to change?

Is that worth doing, over a divorce?

What if nothing changes and it ends up in a divorce, anyway?

Isn't that how serious this is?

Does he realize how serious that is?

Because he needs to.

This is a good post.

There's definitely a happy medium between being not a jerk, and not denying reality or your feelings. You shouldn't feel like you can't express your views or god forbid someone react so badly.

There's not much I can add to this conversation that hasn't already been said by the commenters above me, but I would like to share this comic from The Guardian with you, called You Should've Asked: The Gender Wars of Household Chores. I'd say you ought to show it to your husband, but if everything you've said and done up until now hasn't gotten the message through to him, then unfortunately I kind of doubt this will, either. I'm sorry you've been stuck dealing with this situation for so long. You deserve better.