Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-11-10 05:02 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-11-10 05:02 pm
[ SECRET POST #1040 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1040 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
__________________________________________________
102.
[That Guy With the Glasses]
__________________________________________________
103.
[Doctor Who]
__________________________________________________
104.
[Hetalia/Say Anything]
__________________________________________________
105.
[Tekkonkinkreet]
__________________________________________________
106.
[Persona 3 and 4]
__________________________________________________
107.
[Iron Man Armoured Adventures]
__________________________________________________
108.
[Julia Nunes/Jake/Amir]
__________________________________________________
109.
[Where the Wild Things Are]
__________________________________________________
110.
[Zeta Gundam]
__________________________________________________
111.
[Supernatural]
__________________________________________________
112.
[500 Days of Summer]
__________________________________________________
113.
[The Jungle Book]
__________________________________________________
114.
[Kal Ho Naa Ho, Amélie]
__________________________________________________
115.
[Eli Roth/Blueberries/Inglorious Basterds]
__________________________________________________
116.
[Supernatural]
__________________________________________________
117.
[Heroes]
__________________________________________________
118.
[X-Factor]
__________________________________________________
119.
[V (2009)]
__________________________________________________
120.
[Lackadaisy]
__________________________________________________
121.
[Battlestar Galactica]
__________________________________________________
122.
[Arrested Development]
__________________________________________________
123.
[Star Trek XI]
__________________________________________________
124.
[Supernatural, Heroes]
__________________________________________________
125.
[iCarly]
__________________________________________________
126.
[Gorillaz]
__________________________________________________
127.
[Gundam 00]
__________________________________________________
128.
[The Spoony Experiment/That Guy With the Glasses]
__________________________________________________
129.
[Rocky Horror Picture Show]
__________________________________________________
130.
[Giftpia/Captain Rainbow]
__________________________________________________
131.
[The Twelve Kingdoms]
__________________________________________________
132.
[Mina and the Count]
__________________________________________________
133.
[Drake and Josh]
__________________________________________________
134.
[Newsies, Sloan]
__________________________________________________
135.
[Cillian Murphy & Liam Neeson]
__________________________________________________
136.
[Rachel Leigh Cook]
__________________________________________________
137.
[Glee/Apollo Justice]
__________________________________________________
138.
[Drake and Josh]
__________________________________________________
139.
[Mad Men]
__________________________________________________
140.
[Haley Joel Osment]
__________________________________________________
141.
[SMT III: Nocturne]
__________________________________________________
142.
[Girl Genius]
__________________________________________________
143.
[Ghostbusters]
__________________________________________________
144.
[Zombieland]
__________________________________________________
145.
[Thomas Kretschmann & Adrien Brody]
__________________________________________________
146.
[My Girl]
__________________________________________________
147.
[Rivers Cuomo/Sara Bareilles ]
__________________________________________________
148.
[there she is]
__________________________________________________
149.
[Sherlock Holmes]
__________________________________________________
150.
[Utena]
__________________________________________________
151.
[Flash Forward]
__________________________________________________
152.
[Team Fortress 2]
__________________________________________________
153.
[Michael Buble]
__________________________________________________
154.
[Steve Winwood/Val Kilmer]
__________________________________________________
155.
[NCIS]
__________________________________________________
156.
[Tim Kring, Heroes]
__________________________________________________
157.
[My Life As A Teenage Robot]
__________________________________________________
158.
[The Joker Blogs]
__________________________________________________
159.
[Moulin Rouge]
__________________________________________________
160.
[The Tudors]
__________________________________________________
161.
[World of Quest]
__________________________________________________
162.
[Star Trek: Voyager]
__________________________________________________
163.
[NCIS]
__________________________________________________
164.
[Wrestling]
__________________________________________________
165.
[Alex Rider: Stormbreaker]
__________________________________________________
166.
[McLeod's Daughters]
__________________________________________________
167.
[merlin/kaamelott]
__________________________________________________
168.
[Heard]
__________________________________________________
169.
[Buffy, Torchwood and Firefly]
__________________________________________________
170.
[Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends/Cartoon Network Fusion Fall]
__________________________________________________
171.
[The Mighty Boosh]
__________________________________________________
172.
[Flashforward]
__________________________________________________
173.
[Heroes/Torchwood/The Dark Knight]
__________________________________________________
174.
[Billy Bibbit/Angela Orosco]
__________________________________________________
175.
[Eastwick]
__________________________________________________
176.
[Fefe Dobson & Michael Seater]
__________________________________________________
177.
[MouseHunt/Avatar: The Last Airbender]
__________________________________________________
178.
[flight of the conchords]
__________________________________________________
179.
[Letter Bee]
__________________________________________________
180.
[Dragnet]
__________________________________________________
181.
[Simon Schama]
__________________________________________________
182.
[Cirque du Freak, Doctor Who]
__________________________________________________
183.
[Hurt]
__________________________________________________
184.
[Welcome to Dongmakgol]
__________________________________________________
185.
[Inspector Lewis/Laurence Fox/Alan Rickman]
__________________________________________________
186.
[Bleach/V for Vendetta]
__________________________________________________
187.
[The Dresden Files]
__________________________________________________
188.
[stay]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 12 pages, 282 secrets from Secret Submission Post #149.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - why don't you check the comm you listed as the fandom? ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
Either way, I don't fully agree but I do think people should watch the earlier seasons to get a full understanding of where these characters are coming from and if they haven't, they should be prepared to be smacked down when they screw up on canon events - and that they should accept that with grace. Then again, I came in late myself and I DID catch myself up fully before starting to poke around in fandom, only to discover that a lot of the old time fans hadn't rewatched those older episodes recently and so had forgotten a lot of things that happened in them. Seriously, I want anyone who complains about Sam being OOC in S4 to go back and rewatch the first three seasons - that darkness in the boy didn't just come out of the blue!
no subject
(Anonymous) 2009-11-11 12:11 am (UTC)(link)And that's beside some other general issues with him being OOC.
no subject
See, I've noticed a lot of people complaining at that during S5, but hardly any at all were saying the same during S4, even when he was doing some highly dubious and morally suspect things. I agree that it could have been handled better, but the absolute refusal on the part of some to see the incredibly dark things he was doing in S4 as actually bad things combined with a general resentment of the concept of ANYONE taking Sam to task for his S4 behavior or daring to hold him accountable for his actions is fanwanking of the highest order.
It comes across to me as people having been in denial in S4 and then being bitter about it in S5, which is a shame because Sam going dark side has been foreshadowed since the early episodes of S1. The issue I have is that I found the concept of a hero going darkside out of love and despair caused by love to be incredibly appealing and it seems that they sort of retconned it to be nothing more than a lust for power. And while yes, I see Sam as having control issues to no end, he has so much love in him as well that I'm left at a loss for why TPTB didn't bother to incorporate some of that in as well.
Plus, I'm kind of left going "what, that's it?" at the semi-evil Sam we did get. He hit his lowest point in terms of sheer inhuman scariness in 4x21 but was wibbling again by 4x22. When they were building up to evil!Sam, I was expecting something a bit more, I don't know, evil. And not because of Lucifer either.
no subject
Oh man this is so my issue too.
I'm left at a loss for why TPTB didn't bother to incorporate some of that in as well.
Yeah. TBTB wanted everyone to think Sam had gone evil, and hid Sam's love for Dean to do it (until 4.21 showing that out of everything, his longing for a normal life, need to believe he's good, need for power, yadda yadda, Dean's love/opinion/acceptance is the core of Sam's psyche), but the problem is the writers forgot to show and tell the rest after the reveal. THEY know how much Sam loves Dean, or how Kripke said in an interview how much Sam hates himself for hurting Dean, but a lot of that for some reason isn't making it to the final product. Like the deleted scenes in Free to Be showing Sam and Dean mistaking other people for each other and being CRUSHED. I hated to think so pessimistically, but I coincide the loss of consistently showing both brothers' motivations and points of view to the loss of Kim Manners.
He hit his lowest point in terms of sheer inhuman scariness in 4x21
I find it interesting you say that when he drained a human in 4.22. (Much like Lucifer Rising being so obvious what it's about in the title: "yeah yeah, Lucifer's here, MOVING ON WHAT ABOUT DEAN AND SAM THAT'S ALL I REALLY CARE ABOUT")
Plus, I'm kind of left going "what, that's it?" at the semi-evil Sam we did get...When they were building up to evil!Sam, I was expecting something a bit more, I don't know, evil.
And I wonder if that's the point, Sam doesn't have it in him to be evil, only dark (and seriously, seriously fucked up). Castiel/Uriel/Zach/Lucifer/Meg/Azazel/even John -- all of them foisted hideous expectations on Sam, and of Sam on Dean, without ever really attempting to understand Sam himself.
no subject
I disagree with the 4x21 assessment, though. I think that it did show how much Dean's opinion still meant to Sam, but it was very much Dean's opinion on Sam's own terms. It felt pretty unrealistic for me to try to buy that Sam really cared about Dean in 4x22 when he'd been so cold to his brother for the entire season and honestly felt himself superior, as proven many times. Not just in S4, either - Sam had an element of that to him even back in S1. That whole "I'm better than you" speech in Asylum didn't come from no where either, after all... It was just before only one aspect of his feelings towards Dean, and a relatively small one, but his respect for his brother decreased significantly as his resentment grew. And if they wanted us to believe that Sam was doing any of it for Dean, they should have done a better job of displaying that.
I think Manners had a HUGE impact on the subtler elements of the show and Supernatural is lessened by his loss. It seems like the increase in juvenile humor started around the same time, as well. Very unfortunate, especially since they don't seem to have anyone who can really step in and pull things back together now. :(
He drained a human in 4x22, but he was quite obviously conflicted about and felt it to be a necessary, if terrible, evil. Sam in 4x21, though? Man, he was out of control and rageful in his fight with Dean and then to strangle his brother? *shivers* THAT was a scary thiiiiiis close to dark side Sam! 4x22? Eh, his crime there was that he let name calling stir his temper. It's not exactly his best moment, but it doesn't have the same ring of OMG that the end scene of 4x21 did.
I don't think Sam EVER had the possibility of going evil for the sake of being evil. I think though that he was quite capable of going lawful evil, all without even realizing that he had crossed the moral horizon. Every action that Sam did in S4 was because he thought it was the right one. Of course, he also lied to himself about his own motivations (he DID love the power and control, even though he denied that) and it was that self delusion that made him dangerous. Sam was capable of doing terrible, terrible things in the name of vengeance. That his major crime was something he didn't even mean to do, something that was directly counter to everything he strove for, leaves me feeling that the whole dark!Sam storyline was pretty wishywashy.
IMHO, a lot of Sam's problems in S2 were because he did know he had a thread of darkness in him - that temper of his - but he didn't know how far down it went. His darkness in S2, though? Incredibly human. Unfortunately, he didn't seem to realize that at the time and thought his very natural anger and frustration was because of having been tainted. All those horrible expectations but IMHO, none of them would have mattered if Sam had known himself. But a Winchester actually believing the best of himself? That goes against their family creed, doesn't it? XD
no subject
It actually struck me as fairly IC given the Mystery Spot preview of what type of removed person Sam would become, as well as his erratic behavior in S1's Wendigo and his pathetic mess in Playthings. Keeping things in and making them boil and grow. Only this time it stretched to Dean as well. The self-preservation made sense. Sam loved Dean with all of him, gave/prayed/loved/searched with everything he had, and Dean died, in front of him, and because of him, just like Jess. And Dean, arguably, by that point meant more to Sam than Jess ever had, so the aftermath? Pretty fucked up from the hints in S3/4 and the scenes in IKWYDLS. I see Sam reacting in a way that as much as having Dean back was wonderful, a part of him had already cemented it wouldn't ever risk itself like that again. He didn't trust that he'd have to go through what he did before, again, lesson learned, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me -- there will be no third time, no way no how. I think the expectations for Sam to bounce right back with Dean's return and embrace it were sort of silly. Sam is a person of ritual and habit, clings even tighter when falling apart. Sam signed on for a suicide mission that could destroy him, and having Dean back temporarily shocked him out (oh, Monster Movie, the only happy episode of S4), but not for long. And then Metamorphosis, Sam shut down further; ItGPSW, same thing. After S2, Sam stopped talking about his freaky problems in need to rescue Dean, S4 he stopped talking about much of anything. Unfortunately, Sam lived so much in his head he automatically assumed Dean would get what he was doing (Criss Angel), and Sam's communication skills were complete fail to let Dean in. I don't think Dean really got how much his death destroyed even after IKWYDLS, thinking he could never mean what Sam meant to him, to Sam. As Kripke said pre-S4, Dean came back to "an entirely different world," but expected it to be the same. Not the real world, but his world with Sam, and he didn't want to see it because after hell, he needed the Sam he knew. Sam and Dean's expectations of each other ended up stretching the other too thin, and wearing them both out.
He drained a human in 4x22, but he was quite obviously conflicted about and felt it to be a necessary, if terrible, evil. Sam in 4x21, though? Man, he was out of control and rageful in his fight with Dean and then to strangle his brother? *shivers* THAT was a scary thiiiiiis close to dark side Sam! 4x22? Eh, his crime there was that he let name calling stir his temper. It's not exactly his best moment, but it doesn't have the same ring of OMG that the end scene of 4x21 did.
IA. Last thread of derailed off the tracks. It's just so rare for me to find someone who thinks this too. One of the (many) reasons I quickly stopped checking out televisionwithoutpity boards last summer. Oi.
I think Manners had a HUGE impact on the subtler elements of the show and Supernatural is lessened by his loss. It seems like the increase in juvenile humor started around the same time, as well. Very unfortunate, especially since they don't seem to have anyone who can really step in and pull things back together now. :(
Yeahhhhh. The consistency bothers me. Why S1-3 will trump S4/5 for me, as much as I enjoyed Sam's crazy in S4 and *some* of the stuff in S5. Like Mark's Lucifer = A+.
no subject
I totally agree that expecting Sam to bounce back and be normal after Dean got back was too much to be expected, but I still expected some measure of change to his behavior, you know? If nothing else, some overprotectiveness for a bit. It might have been nice to have had that overprotectiveness, only to have things skitter to a halt at Yellow Fever... I mean, a month or so after Dean comes back, Sam almost loses him again? If anything were going to rip into Sam's psyche, it should have been that. But even by that point, he didn't seem to really care. (Then again, it was Yellow Fever and NO ONE was in character or even seemed to have a shred of empathy.)
I don't think Dean really got how much his death destroyed
And that's the heart of the Winchester tragedy, I think. Or Dean's, perhaps. Dean really had NO IDEA how much he meant to Sam (or John, for that matter). That's a huge measure of how fucked up he was - the fact that he really did think himself worthless except for keeping John and Sam safe and, as best possible, sane. To me, that's why his deal wasn't selfish - IMHO, Dean didn't ever think he had a choice and he never imagined that Sam would be as effected by his death as was the case. I think he STILL isn't aware of it, for all that he's moved away from hanging every shred of his self worth on his commitment to his family. Which is healthy, sure, because no one should be that wrapped up and codependent, but it's kind of sad that he never got that validation and it's all due to miscommunication.
I think Sam stopped talking about his freakiness because there was less fear that he was a freak, since his visions had stopped and YED was dead. And yeah, the deal was something of a distraction. XD I think you've got a fantastic point in that Dean needed Sam 1.0 when he got back from Hell (just as Sam needed Dean 1.0) and neither of them were able to give the other what he desired.
One of the (many) reasons I quickly stopped checking out televisionwithoutpity boards last summer.
What was the issue with TWOP, out of curiosity? I stopped checking in there because the brother vs. brother wank got to be too much for me.
Why S1-3 will trump S4/5 for me, as much as I enjoyed Sam's crazy in S4 and *some* of the stuff in S5.
So far, I think S4 is my favorite season - provided I ignore the existence of certain episodes that I really can't stand. (Yellow Fever and ASS being the primary two here, but Family Remains also annoyed me a good deal.) I love the plot with Heaven and the whispers about Dean's role as the Righteous Man and Sam's slow descent fascinates me. S1-S2 though had individual episodes that pretty much trounce anything in S4 (with the possible exception of 4x01 because I loved that ep to bits). I mean, come on! Asylum? Scarecrow? Faith?? Devil's Trap? Those are amazing!! S2 had IMToD! AHBL! BUaBS. I think I need say nothing else.
I've a distinct love/hate relationship with S3 though. There's a LOT about it that annoys me. The misogyny seems strongest in that season and both Sam and Dean felt incredibly off to me. Plus, you had some ridiculous moments of stupid!Dean - Long Distance Caller? Really, Dean? But then you also have Sam losing his shoe and Mystery Spot and JiB and aargh. I'm conflicted about S3. XD
And quite leery of S5. I liked the first two episodes, was amused by 5x03 but thought it had MAJOR issues (a whorehouse? REALLY? *does not approve*), but was disappointed with 5x04 onwards. Except last week, that was a bit of all right.
no subject
Some people were only JUST getting Sam vs Pride in 3x01. *head desk* I mean, yes it was symbolic, but then you'd have Dean vs Lust, and Pride wasn't alone when he attacked Sam. It's a minor thing but that's one thing that stood out to me that I can remember that sort of made me roll my eyes seeing everyone jump on it like it was a new thing.
I wandered back in recently when I heard the brotherly bonds thread was reopened, hopeful. It's still sort of an angry place, but not like S4, which had a lot of just. plain. anger. I feel so bad for the mods.
I've a distinct love/hate relationship with S3 though. There's a LOT about it that annoys me. The misogyny seems strongest in that season and both Sam and Dean felt incredibly off to me. Plus, you had some ridiculous moments of stupid!Dean - Long Distance Caller? Really, Dean? But then you also have Sam losing his shoe and Mystery Spot and JiB and aargh. I'm conflicted about S3. XD
S3 had some of the best moments EVER, Mystery Spot, Bad Day, AVSC, Fresh Blood ("I'm staring down eternity, alone. Can you think of a worse hell?"), TioMS, and so on. I had a huge problem with the misogyny and even the writers hated the addition of Bela and dumbing Sam and Dean down before her, though, too, but I loved a lot of the foreshadowing and character moments despite them. Like Malleus Malleficrum, where Sam thinks he had to be like Dean, but IT'S NOT DEAN AT ALL, it's only someone who Dean has convinced Sam he is by always protecting him, but Dean doesn't correct him. But mostly it had me at this ambiguity that S4 lacked. LDC didn't have Dean as OC and dumb to me so much as child-like and desperate like a callback to his plea in S1's Home. And I liked Ghostfacers because having sarcastic/WHY ME-and-irritated-at-incompetence!Dean AND bad-ass-scary-big-brother!Dean together was like, my dream come true. &hearts But S5 gave me Jo/Ellen/Rufus so I'm still clinging to hope for it.
I love the plot with Heaven and the whispers about Dean's role as the Righteous Man and Sam's slow descent fascinates me.
I loved Dean having a role in the myth arc, but my problem in season four is the messy way the writers pick up, drop or crap all over things like ambiguity. Vampires not automatically being evil, werewolves not being monsters, etc, were all prevalent in S1-3, and suddenly don't apply. Or destiny, that definitely hasn't gotten any better in S5 -- IMO the events in MatEoTB Dean went crazy trying to prevent only happened BECAUSE HE TRIED TO PREVENT THEM, but apparently that's just a plot hole and not intentional. Plus they keep changing their mind about the angels and hosts, which is irritating. I don't mind adding to the mythos, but at least in my polytheistic SPN in S1-3 things still made sense.
disappointed with 5x04 onwards. Except last week, that was a bit of all right.
You didn't like The End, or do you mean 'stuff after 5.04'? Curious Case was such messy script, and from what I understand it was a guest writer focusing too much on the OCs and Sera tried to fix it. But it had wayyyy too much going on that EVERYTHING was underwhelmed.
Changing Channels was the first time I saw Dean and Sam genuinely liking each other again. I see the care they have for each other every episode (lol), but like S4 where they slowly stopped *liking* each other, this episode they enjoyed each other, without heavy obligations and baggage attached. I haven't seen it since their time as Smith and Wesson in IaTL. When Dean was shot, they clung. When Sam was hurt, Dean took no joy in it, not a smile, only horrified and wanted to know if he was okay. When the Trickster showed, Dean took charge and ordered to the *demigod*/angel nothing else was happening "until Sam has opposable thumbs." And the end, where they agreed for all it's numbing cheerfulness, a part of them missed the fake world (hi Monster Movie ref) of just them and no one trying to tear them apart. And of course, their resolution to ever fight.
no subject
IA again, it didn't come from nowhere. But Asylum has different connotations to me in that scene than being only about how secretly Sam resents and thinks little of Dean. It read off as Sam wanted more than ANYthing to violently go at John and there was only Dean. It had been this huge growing thing between them since they got back together again, John was a literal block between Sam and Dean being partners and brothers (ex: Bugs), the bros came off of Home where Sam hated Dean knowing about his freakishness, Mary's depressing message (and even more depressing meaning reveal in S4), he learns everything started in his nursery, Dean saved him 2/3 times, again, plus the reveal where Dean carried Sam from the fire. Much like the cop in the intro who shot his wife, there was some truth in Sam's rage, but to *that* extent? I didn't think so. Typical younger sibling 'I'm better than you' magnified, frustration and insecurity over Dean's loyalty to John, and extreme grief over Jess's violent murder that Sam hadn't let out, and probably blamed on John too, and his need for some kind of answers for her death that John refused to give. All of it leading up to their temporary and healthy break and reconnection in Scarecrow. (I sort of had the same thing in Sex and Violence comparing the victims to Dean and Sam. Hell yeah there was some vicious dislike mounting between them, but there was truth and exaggeration both in their smack down.)
I think he started openly seeing Dean as weak and unlikeable as S4 went on, jealous even of Dean's approval and support from heaven that Sam wanted so badly. But I also think he found the opposite true: that Dean was stronger than him despite everything, otherwise I don't see how else Sam had all that anger (GGY, at the end, Sam admits his temper was knowing Dean was right, 4.22 he admits to Ruby that Dean was right to be mad, and right about everything), in addition to still resolutely wanting to be with Dean even if it detracted from Lilith-hunting. Sam is driven and narrow-minded and stubborn as hell, if he really thought Dean a hindrance and weak compared to his revenge-hunt, Sam would have taken off. It's there I can't not believe Dean, and love, was still pivotal to Sam's motivations. Largely about power and self-absorption, but competing just about evenly with fucked up love and desperation.
no subject
Oh, agreed! I don't think it was even resentment of Dean so much as resentment of other people's perceptions of him and the grating feeling of being forced back into his own life. It would be like wearing a shirt that's now a couple of sizes too small. Even if it was once a favorite, it's not going to be comfortable unless you stretch it out a lot first.
I also think that a bunch of Sam's issues with John came out there. IMHO, Sam takes a LOT of his issues with John out on Dean, or reads into Dean's actions what he would have seen from John. But that to me goes back to Sam not being quite honest with himself - John was unapproachable and, after S1, not even someone he could rail against. I think Sam was furious with his father but had no outlet to address that, especially because IMHO he felt as guilty as Dean did about John's death - and that would only have grown worse over time when he found out more of what John knew. Dean though was an acceptable target and, come on, it's Dean, in some ways, he was asking for it. Dean's a classic older sibling and they can be bossy and know it all (totally an older sib here, myself! Four younger siblings!), and it wouldn't have been hard to project his anger with his father onto the relatively normal sibling rivalry. And of course, it would have been even easier than usual since Dean wasn't just an older brother - he practically raised Sam.
You've a really good point about Sam perhaps resenting Dean from saving him so often, for that matter... It would have proven to Sam exactly how out of practice he was and everywhere he went, it would have been Dean saving him all over again. (Wendigo and Scarecrow must have been rather satisfying, after the "OMGYOUALMOSTDIED D:" emotional wave died down.)
jealous even of Dean's approval and support from heaven that Sam wanted so badly
Very much agreed. Especially because Sam had always been the believer between them, had been the one who prayed each night.
Dean was stronger than him despite everything, otherwise I don't see how else Sam had all that anger
Mm. I think he sort of realized this, but it was countered with the fact that Dean had, in his mind, broken. Dean would have been incredibly strong to have survived 40 years in Hell, 30 of which were constant torture (and I'm sure the remaining decade wasn't exactly pleasant either). Just to have come out of that still sane, I don't even have words. And Sam's a smart cookie; he had to have thought that through and realized what it meant. But I'm not sure he ever saw Dean as stronger than Sam, so much as different. Weaker and in need of protection, and in 4x22, worthy of that protection. Sam was going to sacrifice himself. Redemption through death. I think he came to a different conclusion in 5x01, when he realized how weak he had been.
Sam's need to keep Dean with him is a complicated one. IMHO, that was partially obligation - especially later in the season. He panicked when he thought Dean was leaving him in 4x04, but was incredibly blase about the same possibility in 4x18. He showed no hesitation in leaving in 4x21, for good reason when he left the first time, but his second departure was much colder. So love, yes, and devotion, and all of it very fucked up, but to me, the desire for power and revenge outweighed the love. Maybe not by much, and maybe mostly at moments such as the end of 4x21, but it still happened. (Which, coincidentally, were the moments when I was most scared for Sam.)
no subject
And Sam's a smart cookie
Sam's brain is much like the Knife that Can Kill Anything Except When It Can't. Sometimes you see why he's Dean's #2 and went to Stanford. Other times, he's just... wow. Dean and Sam deserve each other that way. :p
no subject
You recognize this? I gotta say, I'm surprised. I apologize for having misjudged you.
the absolute refusal on the part of some to see the incredibly dark things he was doing in S4 as actually bad things
Well, I can only speak for me, but any rationalization I've done is because I identify so personally with Sam. I know how desperation to escape the suffocating expectations of family caused me to escape to a college 1,000 miles from home, how family's total disparagement of what I want out of life lead to feelings of isolation and despair, being told by my family that my only value is in doing what they want.
So in S1/S2 in particular, when dealing with family, Sam always did things I had done/would do, and I waited patiently for the day when Sam would become his own person, carve his own place in the world. When Sam seemed to be more independent in S4, I was glad for it and maybe rationalized some things, although I still find it difficult to see Sam's behavior as "incredibly dark, bad things" until at least maybe 4.19. But looking back now I see that was never going to happen, Sam was always going to be cannon fodder for the demon/angel story. That's where my frustration comes from.
no subject
You recognize this? I gotta say, I'm surprised. I apologize for having misjudged you.
It's all good. :) I really do adore Sam, but I like him because he's flawed and has made mistakes, some of them huge. I was incredibly frustrated in S4 that TPTB didn't incorporate some measure of Sam's love and protectiveness into his reasonings - that was what drove him throughout S3 and was a HUGE part of his motivations in S1 and S2. He's always been prone to crave revenge, sure, but come on! This is also the kid who in Faith was so driven by love that he forced a miracle to occur. He's brave, and smart, and so utterly certain that whatever he does won't matter in terms of his own personal redemption because of his past failures that I want to wrap him up in a blanket and just feed him cookies and Mexican hot chocolate for a bit.
That's what makes him all the more heartbreaking to me; killing Lilith was supposed to be his one big moment of redemption and from Sam's perspective, EVERYTHING seemed to be leading to it being his destiny to do so. It had to be seen as a sign of validation that the one demon he most wanted to kill was the one spurring on the breaking of the seals. Even Chuck seemed to confirm it! And what happened as a result? That's Sam's tragedy - he tries so hard to do good, but fails in his execution.
I know I come down hard on Sam sometimes, but that's primarily because I like discussing a character's flaws as well as their strengths and for a bit there, it felt like everyone was forgetting that Sam actually did have flaws and had made mistakes - and serious ones at that. Which sort of left me going WTF because, honest, what is interesting at all about a character who does nothing wrong?
I get that people identify a lot with their favorite characters, and I recognize that I fall more in line with Dean's perspective than Sam's. I gave up a good five years to help my family because it was my duty and they were my family and it was the right thing to do. So to me, it was always Dean that felt like he needed to break out and be his own person and I see Dean as being the more codependent of the two. Sam did escape, more than once, and showed very few signs of missing his estranged family. Which, in Sam's defense, I think was very much a measure of self preservation. I've also been estranged from close family members and it hurts, a lot. In fact, given his behavior in S4, I'd almost argue that distancing himself from what he sees as hurtful emotions is pretty much his MO in those circumstances. Not that he doesn't still feel the hurt and perceived rejection, just that he refuses to allow himself the space to dwell on those and thus process them. It's that whole exchange in 4x16 all over again - Dean saying that he's tired and Sam arguing back to not get tired, but instead to get angry. Anger was a productive emotion; apathy was not. It can lead to a nasty cycle though, especially as he became more isolated.
I see that was never going to happen, Sam was always going to be cannon fodder for the demon/angel story
I'd argue that both Sam and Dean are cannon fodder. My hope for S5 is that they'll continue on this free will vs. destiny kick - and that free will will triumph. Sam has always had a tendency to believe in predetermination, whereas Dean has traditionally been aligned with personal choice. (Ironic, considering their standings with John!) I want to see Sam come to recognize that he has perfect free will as well - that he might have messed up with Lilith but that it wasn't an event destined to occur and he can reject his role with Lucifer. Sam embracing his own free will, as it were. Zachariah and Lucifer very much want Sam and Dean to fall neatly in line with their plans, but that's the beauty of the human spirit. The Winchesters can still tell the angels to fuck off because at the end of the day, it's their choice to make.
In other words - I want these cannon fodder pawns to kick ass and take names. :D
no subject
Exactly right, Sam's tragedy is his failure, his string of failures really.
Sam actually did have flaws and had made mistakes - and serious ones at that
I never thought that Sam didn't have flaws, I just never thought "being evil" was one of them. He certainly has made mistakes, many of them in fact. At least one major one for each season. What would frustrate me was the fandom reaction that Sam was "evil" for having made mistakes, as if that isn't something human beings do.
to me, it was always Dean that felt like he needed to break out and be his own person
Who is more their own man than Dean Winchester? Except maybe Chuck Norris. Sure, Dean can be co-dependent, but no one is more certain of what he wants and then goes and gets it than Dean Winchester. His whole life, he's been doing what he loves doing- the family business. If he wanted to do something else tomorrow, there would be no stopping him. Dean is doing what Dean wants to do, always has. While Dean used to be the King of Co-dependence, after 5.03 even he realizes now that he is happier without Sam around.
I'd argue that both Sam and Dean are cannon fodder.
Yes, they are both cannon fodder now, but Dean could be more than that when it's over. Sam will probably never be his own man, not anymore. Yes, in S2, he may have "choose" hunting, but that was out of responsibility for failing to keep the hellgate closed. Just like S3 was all about keeping Dean from Hell (and failing), and S4 was about stopping the apocalypse (and failing). Yes, Sam enjoys hunting, but he once also wanted something more out of life. Sam used to want a college education, that's gone. Sam used to want a wife and family, that's gone. Since Dean and Bobby are the only two people in the world who don't want Sam dead, none of that is coming back either.
Where Sam once had a full scholarship to Stanford, now he can't even keep a busboy job. Dean is basically doing Sam a favor by letting him come back, and Sam knows it. Sam may have asked to be treated more like a partner, (and it's very big of Dean to agree) but in the final analysis, he's never going to amount to more than Dean's sidekick. I realize that it's good for the show to have Sam with no life except sitting shotgun, but for someone who once saw himself in Sam, it's a bit depressing.
no subject
Eurgh. I want anyone who thinks Sam is evil to go back and rewatch every episode with Sam in them. Sam can be callous. Sam can be frustrating. Sam is human and wonderfully so. How anyone can consider the guy from Faith to be evil, I've no idea. Even in S4, he wasn't evil! Prideful and misguided, sure, but evil? Good grief. You find anyone calling him evil, please direct me to them - I'll gladly meta debate that concept!
I think you and I have different ideas of Dean and Sam's characters, which is probably why we got off on a wrong foot before. :) IMHO, Sam is very much his own person, albeit somewhat lost and uncertain in S1. Dean, in contrast, has been shown to want other things than hunting but to think he either didn't deserve them or would fail at them. He specifically asked Sam if they could stop hunting in S2 and talked about how tired he was of all of it in Croatoan. His "wish" in 2x20 was for a normal life with a normal girlfriend, his normal mother, and normal job. And he was happy with it, until he realized that so many people would have died if he were selfish enough to want these things for himself. We learned in Skins too that he was jealous that Sam had managed to get out because that's what he really wanted for himself as well, but thought that he was too much of a freak to succeed and that John needed him too much to leave.
Dean's also never had the confidence that Sam had in terms of self confidence. Dean's self esteem is incredibly shaky - much of his confidence is blustering. It's not that he's manfully putting on a strong facade while secretly weeping into his Wheaties each morning, but there's a reason Bobby called him out on it in 2x22. We saw it again in S3, during that dreamroot episode when demon!Dean confronted him with it and S4 saw what little confidence that he'd managed to scrap together to be absolutely shattered in 4x16.
Yes, in S2, he may have "choose" hunting, but that was out of responsibility for failing to keep the hellgate closed.
Mm, the Hell Gate was opened at the end of S2 and Sam chose to continue hunting long before that. IMHO, Sam went back to hunting in S1 to kill the YED. He didn't have to do so; he knew that John and Dean were hunting the demon. It's in Sam's nature though to seek revenge. (Again - an incredibly human desire!) By S2, I think he wanted to keep hunting because he was worried about turning evil and so wanted to try and redeem himself ahead of time. "I can't turn evil if I spend all my time saving people!" and that sort of thing.
The reasons that you give are why I feel so much for Sam. Dean lost a lot, but outside of Hell, Sam has definitely lost more because he knows what it's like to have that normal life and then to have it wrenched away. Dean remembers losing his childhood at age four, but Sam remembers losing his adult life at age 22. It's kinda ying and yang in what they've lost, almost.
The idea that Sam will never be more than a sidekick is incredibly depressing and I'll have to disagree with you on it. D: IMHO, they're both in equal danger of losing everything that they are if they give in to Michael and Lucifer, but there's nothing to me indicating that they can't equally push past that and kick ass going forward.
Trust me, if the end comes down to Sam sitting on the sidelines while Dean and Castiel save the day, I'll be pissed. I want the series to end with Sam managing to collect his life again and to find something he really wants to do. Maybe not law, but something that he'll love and that he can be successful in. IMHO, he selected law - and I think was something like tax law, even - because it was as far from hunting as he could find. I want to see Sam all grown up and standing on his own. I want him to be happy because I think he's had precious little of that in his life. I just want the same thing for Dean as well, you know?
no subject
no subject
LMAO, were they sleeping through his Jessica-torment in S1, his self-fear and wanting to die in S2, and his plain crazy looming in S3? Sam's face in the last scene of the pilot, and Dean's watching Sam, and hell, the second episode, Wendigo, showed he doesn't take pain well. And his family issues? His OCD? Man. It's true that had S2!Sam seen himself in S4 he'd have probably shot himself in the head on the spot to prevent it, but, woah. In S1 he didn't *mean* to kill someone else for Dean, of course, believed it was God who answered his prayers instead of that lady killing people she found blasphemous, but the atmosphere of 'Faith' after he found out the truth was that even if Sam could go back in time, he'd had STILL made the same decision and saved Dean anyway. Well, probably would have saved Dean from being electrocuted in the first place and killed two birds with one stone, but yeah.
only to discover that a lot of the old time fans hadn't rewatched those older episodes recently and so had forgotten a lot of things that happened in them
Equally bad.
My beef is that people who only started watching in S4/5 have NO idea how much not only losing Dean broke Sam, but also the cruel twist of Sam's sincere faith. Episodes S1-3(ish when he started going nuts) of him believing in good without needing a sign broke me to itty bitty pieces when he gave up and closed off to any voices but his own in S4. Then there's the new fans who hate on Sam for being "all hunting"/always evil/never loved Dean, and how Dean just wants to settle down and be normal. They have no idea just how wrong the first part is, or how bitterly hilarious the second.
no subject
Seriously, I don't understand the appeal of the poor, put upon woobie puppy faced Sammy who can do no wrong. Vaguely crazy Sam with his OCD and insane intelligence and massive issues and UTTER KICKASSERY is so much more entertaining!
I totally agree that S2!Sam would be horrified with S4!Sam and yes, probably would attempt to kill himself
before Dean thwapped him upside the head and yelled at him. Then again, even S2!Sam can't understand what S4!Sam went through. Makes me wonder where S3!Sam (especially post Mystery Spot) would fall on that concept.Then there's the new fans who hate on Sam for being "all hunting"/always evil/never loved Dean, and how Dean just wants to settle down and be normal.
Man, there are ESSAYS that could be written about the concept of Dean's sour grapes philosophy when it comes to hunting in S1 as compared to Sam's obsession in S4 and how they switched roles. It's even more interesting to me since Sam in S4 was almost the age Dean was in S1 - kind of interesting that they both went through the same "rar, hunting!!" phase at the same age. And the thing is that S1!Dean? Honestly loved hunting! He didn't think he could do much else besides it, true, but he DID love hunting. It made him happy. S4!Sam though? It's just a job to him, not a passion. It's the fear of doing anything else that keeps him trapped in it. :( Dean thought he was a freak, so he might as well make the most of it; Sam thought he was a monster, and through saving others, he might redeem himself.
I fully agree that people who haven't seen the early seasons should do so before they make any judgments on Sam or Dean. There's so much backstory and growth there that I can't imagine NOT doing so!
no subject
Yeah Sam was all for non-violence and that's probably largely why he left hunting, since he was always referring to it in S1 as something to run from, something he was scared of, referring to a life without it as safe, etc. But. NO. AND BORING. He was nine when he STOLE ~*~JOHN WINCHESTER'S~*~ journal, somehow without John noticing (seriously? he went on a hunt didn't need that? LOL I'm now sadistically picturing evil wee!Sam and his passive aggressive attempts to off John). He was a devious genius even then. My canon is he got it from Mary.
It's Sam and his casual acceptance of never getting to grow old in Curious Case that really got me. The Sam I know is a fighter, and while I know he's accepted he's going to die in the apocalypse fighting, as he'd want, the idea that Sam sees hoping for a distant future with Dean as 1) ridiculous, as Dean put, 2) what made him go further down the slope in Criss Angel - true, but D:
Man, there are ESSAYS that could be written about the concept of Dean's sour grapes philosophy when it comes to hunting in S1 as compared to Sam's obsession in S4 and how they switched roles.
AND YET. THEY DO NOT. SEE. THE CONNECTION. I'm sort of disappointed in Dean not seeing it either, personally. But then he's an Olympian contender of denial.
It's just a job to him, not a passion. It's the fear of doing anything else that keeps him trapped in it. :(
Nyghhhh. It's not EVEN a job, it IS a trap. After School Special Sam = D: D: D: D: And Dean not enjoying hunting anymore, though a part of him by S2's Croatoan, is still something that smarts something vicious.
no subject
(That image of evil wee!Sam is ADORABLE. Just so you know.)
I kinda picture that John allowed Sam to take the journal that time... I get the impression that John knows a lot more than he ever let on, especially in regards to his boys. XD
I'm sort of disappointed in Dean not seeing it either, personally. But then he's an Olympian contender of denial
LOL SO TRUE! IMHO, Dean doesn't see it because while he knows Sam insanely well, I'm not sure he has ever understood him. Or if he does, he has an image stuck in his head of Sam at age 18 with the same moral integrity and fire that he had when he left for Stanford. And sure, he knows that Sam's all grown up now and all, but that gut mental image is an incredibly hard one to shake.
Now, I think Sam has seen the irony of the situation (and perhaps Dean has as well, it's not like they'd ever TALK about it or anything) but IMHO he hasn't realized yet exactly how much Dean craved a normal life as well. Dean Smith was channeling his inner Dean Winchester when he told Sam that he didn't know him.
I guess I just take it as yet another example of how they don't really understand each other at all right now. For all of the "we were just starting to be brothers again" moments of S1, I don't think they really began to get to really know one another until S5.
And agreed. Sam IS trapped. I think he honestly enjoys it on some level - there are things from my childhood that I get a pleasant thrill from, even though I couldn't do them for a day to day living. And Dean? I think Dean was mostly just incredibly worn down in that scene. (And I kinda wonder if Tessa deliberately did something to him in 2x01, for that matter - that suicidal depression of his came on awfully quickly and has been associated with Tessa multiple times.) When Dean isn't suicidal? I think he really does enjoy hunting. Dean Smith seemed to enjoy it.
IMHO, they're both towards the middle on the scale between Normal and Insane Supernatural Fun Times. Dean's just a wee bit closer to Insane Supernatural Fun Times and Sam's just a wee bit closer to Normal - when they're both relatively sane and not depressed, that is. :D
no subject
I don't think Sam was ever for non-violence so much as he thought that his fighting skills were another aspect of his freaky past that didn't fit in with his craving for a normal life.
Good point. For all its faults, the episode of Fallen Idols with Ghandi-idolizing (and not just passingly respecting if the god zoned in on it) Sam laughing with blood on his face is just subtly fucked up. Again your point of Sam not getting how dark he is. It reminds me a lot of BtVS. Angel was a ridic poof, but the (occasionally hilarious) refusal of Angel and Angelus to believe they are the same person reminds me a lot of Sam's refusal to accept his demonic dark side, and his inability to accept his "addiction" as a sign of something worse in him until 5.03ish.
And I kinda wonder if Tessa deliberately did something to him in 2x01, for that matter - that suicidal depression of his came on awfully quickly and has been associated with Tessa multiple times.
Ooooh, do you have more meta on this theory posted? I'm interested because aside from S4 where the reaper gave Dean the memories of 2x01 back, I'd never given this much thought.
IMHO, Dean doesn't see it because while he knows Sam insanely well, I'm not sure he has ever understood him.
YES YES! I sort of lol'ed in Lucifer Rising that one moment where Dean is STILL hung up on Sam leaving
himthe family and hunting life for college, completely choosing not to remember the years since where Sam wanted to live with him, loved him, and was showing eerie signs he could KILL OTHER PEOPLE like in Time is on my Side to make it happen. Much like Dean not getting how much Madison meant and represented, in S4 he even lumps her in as a monster! So much of him still sees Sam as his kid, he can't separate that out and sees all of Sam's issues as his, with the intensity of a thousand suns, and judges them accordingly. Again, for all the issues I have on 5.05, that point being addressed I liked.no subject
That's PERFECT! And your comments fill me with laugher and glee as well. I think it's the pure win of them. :D
XDXD SAM IS ANGEL. Does that make Dean Spike? Oh, please tell me that makes Dean Spike! (Also, please tell me we get Sam as a muppet at some point, because that possibility AMUSES ME TO NO END.)
I think you've got a great point with that, seriously. Sam really doesn't understand his own darkness. He walls it off as something separate to himself, something to fight against as an external force, when really, it's an internal thing. It's his pride and need for control that cause him to do dark things, not YED, nor Lilith, nor Ruby. Which gives me hope for Sam in early S5, because he seemed willing to accept some of that and was why I was so incredibly frustrated with Fallen Idols because it seemed like Sam was rejecting it again. Which, argh. Learn from your mistakes, Sam!
I'm interested because aside from S4 where the reaper gave Dean the memories of 2x01 back, I'd never given this much thought.
Not formally posted, but right after Dean woke up in 2x01, he said he felt fine, except that it felt like there was a hole in him. He said it again in 4x15, when he told Tessa that he'd felt like he'd had a hole in him for that entire year. I guess come to think of it, his deal was somewhat selfish because Dean was freaking suicidal in S2 and really, really wanted to die. He didn't feel like that in Devil's Trap, though he was obviously shaken and while I can see how John's sacrifice would have horrified him, I guess I'd have expected him to improve throughout S2, if that was the major issue, but instead his depression got worse. My pet theory (if you care to hear it) is that death wasn't the way to wake up from the djinn's dream - it was that you had to find something you wanted more than the dream itself. What did Dean want?
Plus, it explains why he was so exuberant in early S3. It wasn't just that he was in denial (which, to an extent, he was), it was that a load had been taken off his shoulders. He was finally done.
I sort of lol'ed in Lucifer Rising that one moment where Dean is STILL hung up on Sam leaving him the family and hunting life for college,
I KNOW. As much as I hated Bobby in that scene, Dean's sudden selective amnesia about S1-S3 was kind of ridic. And I'm SO GLAD you pointed out that bit in TIOMS!! Sam's brilliant idea there - turn him and Dean into undead shambling zombie critters who must kill others to survive! Wonderful idea, Sammy! I see now why you're the smart one! XD
I don't fault Dean for not understanding the full appeal of Madison or why her death would have so devastated Sam. Then again, I'm still wondering why they never pulled a Buffy on the werewolves either. They're regular humans for 28 days of the month, right? Why not lock themselves up for the remaining two or three? Or get heavy duty drugs and knock themselves out?
Poor Sam, anyway. Was the last "good" supernatural critter Lenore? Has it been that long? No wonder the poor fellow grew depressed about his own chances at beating the odds!
for all the issues I have on 5.05, that point being addressed I liked.
I'd have liked that point had it been phrased better. Sam's judgment was very much in question and the last time Sam had been allowed to make his own decisions when it came to hunting, it lead to VERY BAD THINGS. I don't blame Dean at all for watching his brother like a hawk. But the writing didn't allow that to come through at all and Dean's bossiness was annoyingly OOC. (Some measure of bossiness, sure, but Dean's never been THAT bad, you know?) Especially because Dean kept his mouth shut about his very valid points of concern and his own issues with the brotherhood, it felt incredibly onesided to me. Then again, Dean was kind of written as an idiot in that ep, so... Meh. 5x05 kind of ranks up with Yellow Fever for me in terms of characterization so I try not to think of it.
no subject
BOTH HAVE GIANT FOREHEADS. And should be forbidden from having sex because of the mortality rate post-coital.
Demon!Sam MUST manifest and hate on Sam forever for rescuing a puppy once. Or crying to Sleepless in Seattle or Pluto not being a planet anymore or something equally Sam-lame. Because you know he did.
Because I am a massive SPN/BtVS loser I have a whole bunch of long-winded comparisons of how Dean+Sam together make up Buffy or Angel at any given time (sometimes Sam separates to be Giles and Dean to be Gunn, but yeah). So many people see Sam as Willow but I don't get it beyond the fail of both writers simplifying control issues as addiction, but at least Sam stopped blaming "the magicks"/the blood and accepted consequences and didn't try to end the world over his pain.
I was so incredibly frustrated with Fallen Idols because it seemed like Sam was rejecting it again. Which, argh. Learn from your mistakes, Sam!
I didn't see Sam rejecting responsibility, since 5.01-5.04 was so much of Sam 1) admitting he was wrong 4.22, 5.01, 2) admitting he had a problem 5.02, 3) that he didn't deserve trust as a human being, let alone brother 5.02, 5.03, 4) that his selfish actions hurt a lot of people 5.03, 5) that he would have to work very, very hard to make it up to Dean 5.03, 5.04. Fallen Idols was the addition of 6) he knows he will never make it up to Dean because, come on, fratricide and asshattery, 7) he is going to keep trying despite that he will never make it up to Dean. The things he was trying to bring up came across as "Yeah, I fucked up, and yeah, if you want pile any crap on me because I deserve it and I have ISSUES (bloody hell! *snerk* Now Spike won't leave my head!), but this is also what went wrong here." and shifting to problem #2 of like, 382432 they'll have to address: Dean has to speak, instead of passive aggressively deny in his need to have everything be okay, when things aren't working, AND it's okay to step away from Sam's baggage and focus on himself -- rather than writers pretending #1 (Sam's problem) never happened.
But I have been told several times I'm determined to think the best of show even in the worst circumstances. >>
no subject
I do think though that every word out of their mouths in the 4x14 climax was the truth, it was just things that they NEVER would have said. Sam really did feel himself stronger and smarter than Dean. Dean really was horrified at what he saw Sam as becoming. And, being Winchesters, they refuse to actually talk about any of this and instead brush it all under the rug. Out of all the damaging things they both did to each other in S4, the mutual avoidance of the issues raised in 4x14 had to be among the worst of them. It was after that that Sam's darkness and Dean's depression spiked, and that's what ultimately drove them apart.
no subject
+ every word out of their mouths in the 4x14 climax was the truth, it was just things that they NEVER would have said. Sam really did feel himself stronger and smarter than Dean. Dean really was horrified at what he saw Sam as becoming
+ they refuse to actually talk about any of this and instead brush it all under the rug. Out of all the damaging things they both did to each other in S4, the mutual avoidance of the issues raised in 4x14 had to be among the worst of them
lsdjlsdf yes to everything. And when they do talk, they misinterpret. LOL