fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1592 ]

[ SECRET POST #1592 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1592 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[BSG]

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[Yu-Gi-Oh 5Ds]

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[Supernatural]

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[Glee]

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09. [repeat]

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[Once Upon A Time In Mexico]

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[Breakout Kings]

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[Supernatural]

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[Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae o Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai]

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[Invasion America]

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[Zork Nemesis]

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[Waiting for Godot and Good Omens]

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[Withnail & I]

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[Gorillaz]

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[The Young Riders]

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[Pride & Prejudice]

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[Shantae: Risky's Revenge]

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[bbc sherlock (lestrade)]

[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

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24. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]

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25. [SPOILERS for Ghost Trick]

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26. [SPOILERS for Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey]

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27. [SPOILERS for Death Note]

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28. [SPOILERS for the Tudors]

29. [SPOILERS for Transformers: Dark of the Moon]

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30. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]

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31. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]

[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

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32. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, abuse]

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33. [TRIGGER WARNING for abuse/sexual assault]

[Glee]

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34. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]
[TRIGGER WARNING for parent death?]

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35. [TRIGGER WARNING for ]

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36. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, racism, abuse, and pedophilia]

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37. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-harm]

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38. [TRIGGER WARNING for sexual abuse]

[Kuroshitsuji II]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #227.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Warnings have been observed, traditions have been followed, the seventeen ritual goddamned candles have been lit and all should be well.

Right. Of course. I forgot, the entire world is all fixed now and nothing bad ever happens. No one is ever ignorant, no one is ever hurtful, no one is ever mean or wanky, no one ever dies and everybody lives happily ever after.

Like, for example, the whole kerfluffle over the genderqueer person who couldn't enjoy a show anymore because a friend of a friend said it appealed to
"both genders". Seriously?!

You know, we don't actually have the context for that? Or even the entire statement that was made? Somehow, I'm guessing it was more complicated than that, but once again, a person in pain's entire thesis statement on what hurt them was boiled down to its simplest, most nonsensical form, so that it could be mocked, dismissed, ignored. Made into a joke that no one has to care about, that can't possibly be worth discussing or examining or thinking about, because oh no, caring about other people is G-ddamn hard.

Another example would, indeed, be LARGE REPTILE WARNING. What the everliving fuck. Shakesville is already supremely ridiculous in my mind, and a hive for sfda-ri, but that just is the crown goddamn jewel. I mean...how does that even work? Do you have a specific medically diagnosed phobia of large reptiles (i.e. seeing one makes you need to cry for hours somehow?)

Have you never heard

impertinence tell the story of her calculus trigger? (http://impertinence.dreamwidth.org/470578.html) (Warning: Very explicit discussion of sexual assault and the nature, anatomy, cause & effect of triggers. Is itself triggery.) If you haven't, it's worth a read. It is, in part, the story of how an innocuous thing no one could possibly understand became part of the pathology of someone's suffering. One thread in the fabric of their suffering.

impertinence doesn't ask for calculus warnings. But if I ever wrote a fic that included calculus, I'd warn for it, because I know her specifically and like her specifically and if she specifically was reading something of mine, I'd tell her in advance because I knew. Not because everyone on earth is obligated to know everyone else on earth's specific triggers, but because I, me, specifically, know that that is one for her, and because I care about not hurting her, I'd do it. It's not a moral imperative. It's a gesture from one individual person who knows something about someone else, to that individual someone else, that is meant to say I am happy to make my individual space safe for her. No one else has to do that if they don't want to. She hasn't asked for it, and I'm not asking them for it on her behalf. (Indeed, it'd be pretty arrogant of me to do, when she and I are, at best, semi-acquaintances with friends in common. But I like and respect her, so I care about welcoming her into my space, should she ever choose to stop by.)

"Large reptile warning" is the same bloody thing. A gesture from someone who knows that secret about someone else and cares enough about that specific person to not care if they look a little ridiculous in public.

I would hope so, because no, you do not get to ask for trigger warnings just because you don't fucking like it.

Now who's acting like the Internet Pope? Do you blog at Shakesville? No? Are you friends with any of the regulars? No? Then who are you to say what they can warn for and what they can't? Who are you to say that they can't provide what services they want in their own space to their own regulars? Isn't the whole crux of this argument that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do in their own space? Who are you to tell people that just because you don't want to do something, they shouldn't?

If you were warned and you read anyway, that is on you.

And what if you weren't? Believe it or not, warnings are not standardized in every fandom, every community, every website, every journal, every blog. Some people will warn for eating disorders; some won't. Some people will warn for character death; some won't. Some people will warn for rape; some won't. Some will warn for racism in their historical AU; some think that the fic being labeled "historical AU" should be warning enough. Some people think "I don't warn" is a warning, even though it tells you nothing about what they're not warning for. Some people think "triggery" is a warning, even though they're not mentioning which trigger. I've had the fucking surreal experience of being told off by someone for warning for incest in my own fic, because warning for incest "stigmatizes people with an incest kink, and the pairing label should be warning enough." (In my space, where I'm friends with people who will read my fic just because they're my friends, not because they're in my fandoms? No, it's bloody well not, and don't tell me that I can't run my own damn space to accommodate that.)

There is no consistent rule. And people get hurt by that, and then we all fight for months about whether or not anyone should care. And complaining about other people caring too much in their own spaces makes you the enlightened one concerned about freedom, beauty, truth and art?

I would love to be able to dismiss you as a troll, but alas, I'm pretty sure you're 100% serious.

Late to the party, but I really need to get this off my chest:

It seems as if most people are confusing the issue of "which side is right" with "which behavior is right." Some people say: don't bully or shame people for their kinks. Others: don't bully or shame people for being personally troubled by a kink. But very few (*steadfastly ignores Certain Commenter above*) are saying "all kinks are bad (*except mine)" or "no one should ever be offended by a kink." Now that may be the subtext for some people who simply want to cast their side in the most favorable light, but taken at face value, most people's comments seem to agree about standards of behavior. They just suffer the usual cognitive dissonance depending on whether they are on the giving or receiving end the the personal opinion/personal attack.

The first person who says "but their side does it mooooore!" gets to stand in the corner until the next post.

~will tl;dr for fanfic~

Oh yeah they should absolutely be able to express distaste, dislike or any sort of feelings about it. And I mean, when I see something I don't like, I just laugh it off. It just confuses me when it turns into a really big issue and goes from apathy to hate. Because... I don't like a lot of things but I don't judge people who do :S To each his/her own.

I don't think Karofksy apologized for Kurt. I think he apologized to make himself feel better. If he had actually put any effort into chaning himself before this I might have believed him. As it is? No way. I also think you're really naive if you think all, if not most, apologies aare actually made to make the victims feel good. In my esperience they tend to be selfish.

That's MY opinion. I'm not saying anyone has to share it.

Just because part of an apology is to make the person apologizing feel better doesn't mean that it's not honest. If Karofsky wasn't sorry for what he did he wouldn't have needed to feel better by apologizing, would he?

It's also incredibly hard to change ones self when you're afraid that by doing so you're going to be persecuted. Keep in mind he only became a member of the bully whips because Santana threatened him. Karofsky is scared to come out of the closet. It's a big thing to ask someone to change when they're not ready, like when Kurt told Karofsky to come out of the closet. It's irrational for you to expect him to change on his own will, not when his life is controled by the fear of persecution by his peers.

Feeling guilty and only looking to relive that guilt and not the pain of the person you abused is selfish.

It's not hard to stop being an asshole. I'm not saying he should come out. I never said that. If he had taken the initiative to become a better person by himself, and not because of Santana, for exmaple. Or maybe said that, hey, I can change schools so you can come back because I know you don't feel safe around me! Or apologizing to Figgins and try to help Kurt get back without any kind of blackmail. As it is Karofksy is still the same bully he was. He's just been blackmailed into stopping and did not stop out of any real change of character or feelings of guilt. lol at me being "irrational" for expecting someone to stop abusing people because they're ~scared~. Every gay person is scared. Only the assholes and abusers chose to show that fear through abusing other people. hth.

Except when they show up they're usually not satisfied with self-examination and discussion. I like self-examination and discussion; I am honest-to-God in favor of social justice myself. I like it when I see social issues get actually discussed on F!S, and people learn things!

But the sfda-ri (the really hardcore wanker contingent) are like the self-proclaimed "/b/-tards" in that they don't care about the content of a discussion, they just want to jump on someone and tear them up. And people associate actual social justice with trolololol, and that leads to the whole "SJ WARRIORS AUGH" attitude, and it's just fucking dumb.

....That second part. Uh. Welp, I guess my thoughts on that are that if you aren't warning about what's in your fic, then, yeah, you're an asshole. :\ I mean, you don't have to warn about everything, and if the prompt said "RAPE FIC WANTED" and you wrote a rape fic people should not be shocked when, in fact, it is a rape fic, but the Internet and your kink do not excuse you from common social graces. Warning isn't kinkshaming.

Right. Of course. I forgot, the entire world is all fixed now and nothing bad ever happens. No one is ever ignorant, no one is ever hurtful, no one is ever mean or wanky, no one ever dies and everybody lives happily ever after.

Not what I said, or what I was even implying. I know, I know, intent isn't magic and you can't read my implications, so here we go: what was implied here was that in my experience, and this is just my experience, people in my fandoms have been sensible enough to follow the necessary traditions. In the wider sampling I see from F!S, people also seem to be sensible enough to follow necessary traditions.

When those necessary traditions are followed, and people start shit, can we at least agree that that is unnecessary trolling? That that is kink-shaming? Cause, uh, I don't know any other word for it, and I dislike that people can cover it up with a veneer of socially respectable horseshit. Social justice is an important enough thing that clogging it up with that kind of crap is just dumb.

You know, we don't actually have the context for that? Or even the entire statement that was made? Somehow, I'm guessing it was more complicated than that, but once again, a person in pain's entire thesis statement on what hurt them was boiled down to its simplest, most nonsensical form, so that it could be mocked, dismissed, ignored. Made into a joke that no one has to care about, that can't possibly be worth discussing or examining or thinking about, because oh no, caring about other people is G-ddamn hard.

You're right, we don't, and all we have is fragmentary evidence. But entertaining the idea that, perhaps, the fragmentary evidence is true, which I tend to believe, that sort of shit is pretty goddamn silly. I mean, I'm sorry that someone was hurt. I will add the caveat that this is true if someone was, in fact, emotionally hurt, and didn't just take umbrage at a common expression and decide to start shit over the Internet.

It is a little weird and interesting to me how very much people (like yourself) do end up caring about people's delicate personal feelings and willing to place faith in their proclaimed identities, but that's another tangent.

(I'm going to take the liberty of cutting the discussion of large reptile warning/trigger nature/etc., if you don't mind)

That is actually pretty fascinating, and I did not know about it (impertinence's story). In lieu of that, I am sorry, and I should have looked for more context despite how much I dislike Shakesville and its regulars.

In my mind, that makes it as valid as a medically diagnosed phobia, and I must eat a considerable amount of crow. On its face, I still think the concept of a "large reptile warning" is rather ridiculous, but you can't choose what's associated with abuse.

However. There are, also, people who misuse the whole concept of triggers, and use it as a "censor" button for things that they don't like for whatever reason.

I suppose I did come off as preaching to the regulars of Shakesville on the "large reptile warning" thing. Again, what I mean is that no matter how strongly you disapprove of something or fear something (like, say, large reptiles), unless you have an actual condition attached to your reaction to it (phobia, trigger events), asking for a trigger warning is pretty fucking trivializing. It's dumb.

If you weren't warned, then feel free to raise a fuss. It doesn't sound like the maker of the secret wasn't warned, it sounds like they just wanted to cause drama.

That experience of yours is pretty fucking surreal, and the person who said that to you is pretty dumb. If you think something should be warned about, warn about it.

In my own experience, and in my own spaces/fandoms, people have exhibited pretty good common sense. And if you aren't warning for something like, say, rape, or child abuse, or other common triggers, that is asshole behavior. Warning for eating disorders is also pretty necessary. Warning about racism seems similar, although if the historical AU is the Civil War or colonial America then maybe someone should expect it.

Warning for character death...that depends.

No, there is no consistent rule, and I'm not saying that people have no right to get upset when something blindsides them or that they can't fucking care all they want in their own spaces. But...I mean, what the fuck is gained by turning around and making secrets like this, where there's value judgment all over the place and people using the excuse of pain that might or might not be real (this being the Internet, and people being able to pretend behind a shield of anonymity that they are absolutely any form of human in existence) as an excuse to cause other people pain, embarrassment, or anger?

Nothing. Nothing is gained. It's dumb. That's why YKINMK was invented; that's why people end up arguing with acronyms and with no1currs. That's the crux of my whole disagreement with the sfda-ri and Shakesville. It doesn't help to come in riding a goddamned storm of fury and call people *ist anything. It makes one look like an asshole, and then it is reasonable to treat one like an asshole.

I'm pretty sure I'd be considered an "SJer" here, we're not a fucking monolith.

Large reptiles. Um. It was nice of that person to include a warning for their friend. But. Thought we were discussing mockery of things that are actually controversial, but I guess someone here has lost the thread of the actual conversation.

You could also make a drinking game based on "YKINMK" and its variations. Arguing with an acronym is pretty dismissive. :-/ It says, "Your pain is not even worth engaging with for more than ten letters."

After you've spent years and years defending yourself with the best-thought arguments you can express and getting back nothing but a pile-on of, "you're a horrible person, kill yourself" - unanon, mind you, people proud of those opinions and not trolling - you'd come back with ten letters eventually, too. I am pretty much at that point nowadays.

You're right though, no1curr about people deeply wounded by large reptiles. GUESS YOU WIN, THEN.

Key word being 'consent'

Bill Pullman is perhaps the most prized actor of the twentieth and now twenty-first century!

ME TOO BB, ME TOO. IT WAS LIKE MY CHILDHOOD. AND THEN I PLAYED IT AGAIN AND COULD STILL REMEMBER HOW TO SOLVE ALL THE PUZZLES AND IT WAS 100x FUNNIER BECAUSE I GOT ALL THE JOKES.
I still tell people that they gained 86 experience points and found a healing potion. So far, no-one has understood. :(
I need to get round to buying a new version because my discs are buggered and won't load past the prison. Sad times.

Isn't it wonderful?

He had more character development in the books, as lousy as they were, and in the comics. Plus he's popular in fanfiction and RP, so there's a bunch of character development on the part of fans. He's a well-liked character, even if you can't see it.

And if the OP is who I think it is, they've been a huge part of that fan development so of course they'd be upset about this news.

I don't go on kinkmemes, myself, because I don't find them all that interesting. But I've seen enough complaints about how XXX was in this story, when it should have been fairly obvious that XXX was in that story, or people complaining that XXX was written about where someone could see it (and do we ever get that kind on FS a lot...), to think that it must be fairly common, because I hate to think that there are that many people out there who, being aware that XXX was out there, were ditzy enough to miss all the warnings that are generally put out there.

GUESS YOU WIN, THEN.

I'm sorry, were we competing? You asked a question. I gave an answer. If I seemed short with you, I apologize. It was very late, I was very tired (plus I've got a chest cold kicking my ass). So, sorry.

Thought we were discussing mockery of things that are actually controversial, but I guess someone here has lost the thread of the actual conversation.

I'm guessing that someone is me, but in my head, it made sense. Warnings are controversial. What to warn for is controversial. "Warnings creep" is an actual thing people express concern about every time the debate comes back up. ("If I warn for rape, character death, eating disorders, animal abuse, insert other common trigger here, people will start asking me for warnings for beach balls or the color orange! So I don't believe in warnings at all!" Yes, that really happened. (http://zvi.dreamwidth.org/528976.html?format=light))

After you've spent years and years defending yourself with the best-thought arguments you can express and getting back nothing but a pile-on of, "you're a horrible person, kill yourself" - unanon, mind you, people proud of those opinions and not trolling - you'd come back with ten letters eventually, too. I am pretty much at that point nowadays.

I am genuinely sorry that that has happened to you. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a horrible person because you have a kink that isn't kinky for everyone. (I don't want to suggest yours is a trigger when I don't know what it is- and you are not obligated to tell me what it is. Hi, we're strangers.) And I think anyone who tells anyone else to kill themselves- whether they're anonymous or not- is a horrible person.

But I think we're coming at this from completely different experiences in fandom.

Mine has been that kink is fandom's sacred cow and expressing discomfort with a kink (even if it's in a locked, cut, warned post on my own journal not naming any names or providing any links) will result in people telling me, "Don't judge" or "Don't shame." It counts as judging or shaming to say, "This hurts" somewhere well away from the person whose kink it is? How can that be?

And that...gets exhausting.

I'm Jewish. I live in a part of my country where Antisemitism actually is a part of my daily life. In fact, given that I'm religiously a convert (ethnically Sephardi on my mother's mother's side) whose parents practice something else, Antisemitism is part of interacting with my family and their friends.

For me, Holocaust kink AUs are not awesome. They hurt. People eroticizing the torture of Jews does, y'know, bad things to my mind. And sure, I can choose not to read; I do choose not to read. But quietly wishing behind my own locked door that this wouldn't occur unwarned for in places I hang out ('cause it does- oh, G-d, it does), being told that I'm shaming someone feels like being stabbed in the heart. I live in a world where a stranger's ability to get off on something that hurts me is more important to some people- people I've liked and trusted, for that matter- than my ability to live my life without feeling like people out there really hate people like me. (Yes, I know, having a Nazi kink doesn't mean someone is an Antisemite. ...but it does mean people are getting off on the concept of other people being Antisemites, and that's a pretty awful feeling, too.)

And at that point, I'm not experiencing this as a difference of opinion. I'm experiencing it as part of the pattern of discrimination. And I'm not the only one.

People (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411237075#t411237075) mock (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411694803#t411694803) that. (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411384275#t411384275) Not only do they mock it, they use it as fuel for hate speech. (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411209683#t411209683)

TL;DR- yeah. It happens.

the point

your head

a 13yo cannot consent to jack shit & the fact that japan is fine with this means that they don't really care as much about children being exploited/abused sexually. the writers of this show did not fucking care enough to troll anyone.

"Feeling guilty and only looking to relive that guilt and not the pain of the person you abused is selfish. "

But that does not mean that the person apologizing doesn't mean it and doesn't want the person apologizing to know. If you want to think an apology is a bad thing, then fine. Go ahead and live in your world of complete distrust of others, people actually do have good intentions at times, and just because it helps them feel better to does not mean that what they did was selfish or bad. Unless you really think that Kurt did not want to hear an apology, or didn't want to know whether Karofsky was sorry or not, what he did was not a selfish or bad thing to do.

And you fail at forgivness. I forgive Karofsky for acting out of fear, because acting out of fear, is a very human and natural thing to do.

And yes, you're still irrational.

LOL Shakesville white knight.

Okay, first of all I believe apologies can be good. And I said so. But they require a person to 1. change themselves and 2. not ONLY say it to relieve their own guilt.

Secondly. You know nothing about me. I'm perfectly capable of forgivness. But Karofsky is a fictional character and abuser. I can hate him and I will. He is not a real human that will suffer from my hatred and judgement of him.

I forgave the boy who sexually assaulted me in real life. So don't tell me I don't know how to fucking forgive, cause I do. But you know what? It wasn't about him and he doesn't deserve that forgivness from me. I don't owe it to him to guide and support and forgive him when he cries for it because he had a hard time and was confused about his sexuality at the time. I'm sure it was human, rape is a very human thing to do after all, but that doesn't make it okay. I hear people like you all the time. Rape/abuse apologists is nothing new. It doesn't make you a bigger person. People who excuse these men because they were ~sad~ or ~struggling~ are just apologists who hide behind compassion as an excuse. YOU are just like them. I know you don't like that label, but that's what you are and it's sad that you can't see that.

Also;
I forgive Karofsky for acting out of fear,

lol, wut. Dude, he is NOT real. He is not your friend. And mostly he did not hurt YOU so your forgivness is meaningless.

I didn't find them OMFG SO HOT until I started watching the show.

It was the characters I was attracted to first, then the actors. Now I find them both stupidly attractive, in and out of character.

It doesn't hurt that they're really sweet and funny, either. :D

Hahahha you must be me, this was exactly my answer.
/late to the party

AWWW MAN, I WANTED TO GO AS THE SIX ARMED INVISIBLE BRIDGE GUY FOR HALLOWEEN ONE YEAR WHEN I WAS LITTLE, UNTIL MY DAD POINTED OUT THAT A) IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE, AND B) NOBODY WOULD KNOW WHO I WAS. I also used to joke about totemizing people ("a very bad thing!") and not being a real adventurer, just playing one on TV. Alas, the people at my college are culturally deprived. It is so good to hear someone else talk about it! *clings*

Good luck in your search for a new copy! I don't know if there are any around that will play on modern computer systems, but carry on, brave soldier!

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Page 39 of 41

[ SECRET POST #1592 ]

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