[ SECRET POST #1756 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1756 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 165 secrets from Secret Submission Post #251.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

But if you're participating in an English-speaking community, reading English posts and writing comments in English, is it too much to ask for that you master basic English grammar and spelling? I'm ESL, but I feel like it's my obligation not to abuse other people's language. Writing in a different language, even if it's just a comment, is obviously more difficult, but if you want to do that, then put some effort in it. If you're too lazy to learn proper English, then maybe you should stay away from English-speaking communities. I'm sick of having to decipher barely understandable shit because someone was too lazy to look up a few words.

[bloodrivendream.livejournal.com]

If something is indecipherable I don't bother.
But I really do not think a few grammar or spelling errors in a casual discussion is a big deal at all.

[(Anonymous)]

a few grammar or spelling errors ... is a big deal

[oflittlebrain.livejournal.com]

ugh get over yourself

[(Anonymous)]

If the a is attached to few rather than errors, there's no problem. It's only one few.

[(Anonymous)]

People who have spoken English their whole life sometimes never master basic English SPaG.

Then of course, we're human so we make mistake, (I'm sure grammar troll in this thread will point them out.) or pick up things from those around us. I still use ain't, and I doubt the people around me care since it's become apart of our normal use of language.

[meadowphoenix]

"Ain't" used to be proper English though before the elite classes decided it didn't have round enough vowels or whatever.

[(Anonymous)]

What?

The more you know.gif (And it's on tinypic so that is why you can't see it here)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I'll be your Huckleberry grammar troll - it's "a part" not "apart." ;-)

No, seriously. I use "ain't" to speak or when writing quotes, because English has all these weird rules and exceptions anyway, so why should something have to always be two clear words to be expressed as a contraction? (Another favorite variation of mine is "idn't" which is definitely not a word, but I still say it.) From what I understand of ESLs, that's the worst part of learning English, is all the arbitrary rules that somebody just made up at some point to justify the word they made up or stole. It reminds me of my bank's rules, LOL.

[t-funster.livejournal.com]

But if you're participating in an English-speaking community, reading English posts and writing comments in English, is it too much to ask for that you master basic English grammar and spelling?

Yes, it is! Because some other countries may not have space for discussions like that.

See it in my case: I'm not a english native speaker, and I don't have a very big vocabulary, but I can only talk about, let's say, Star Trek Enterprise or Bleach in english-speaking communities. They don't exist in portuguese, my mother-tongue. I wanna be part of the communities, and these are the only places I can go. I'm pretty sure that's what's happen with other people, too.

[(Anonymous)]

However, judging by your post, you have a mastery of basic English grammar and spelling. Not having a mastery of such would mean that your posts are either unreadable or on their way to being such, and for everyone else, the inability or near inability to decipher what you have to say really takes away from any point you're trying to make.

While I do agree that in discussion posts, it's rather silly to be pointing out grammatical errors, it's also rather silly to fail at caring at all and saying that it's not necessary. The main problem with discussion on the internet is that it's so reliant on text. So it's a good idea to learn, understand, and memorize the basics of the language you're trying to use because if you don't, then you're going to run into communication problems. (Alternatively, you could end up in a situation where people just don't take you seriously.)

So it's really a courtesy thing.

[damnated.livejournal.com]

Completely off-topic...

Mas só queria dizer olá. :3

[zanah0ria.livejournal.com]

I agree with this, so much. Portuguese is my mother tongue as well and I often have to resource to english forums if I want to participate in fandoms. It sucks.

[(Anonymous)]

Mastering a second language does consume rather a lot of time and money. Some of us are fortunate in that our circumstances allow us to pick up a language more easily, but this is not the case for everyone. If a person's job requires mastery of a language that would be one thing, but fandom is a hobby, so I do think it's asking a little too much.

[(Anonymous)]

Forgive me if I've missed the point, but from what I can tell, the anon is not asking for a mastery of the English language so much as a marked attempt at mastering the basics of the English language. In order to communicate with an audience that speaks the language fluently, this would be a given to do, not an option only the privileged can take. Assuming you're ESL, it would be like me attempting to write in your native language but misspelling or misusing every single word in every single sentence I write. After a while, it would probably be unreadable to you as well, right?

To clarify a little more, English speakers can understand and forgive you if you use your instead of you're. English speakers do that all the time too, and we know that some rules are just incredibly complicated. However, there's other rules -- like periods need to go after every sentence, you need to capitalize every name and the first word of every sentence, and so forth -- that are very simple and remain consistent. We also don't expect you to know the dictionary, but we do expect you to spell out the word you and spell simple, common words like person or easily correctly. This is just so everyone can understand you and can grasp your point without working too hard to decipher what you're saying. Like you said, fandom is a hobby, but it's a hobby for everyone. If people have to go out of their way to understand what you're saying, then neither you nor the people you're talking to are going to have an intelligent, fun discussion.

[(Anonymous)]

The kind of goofs you're describing really has more to do with how much consideration a person gives to their writing, not how well-versed they are in the language, and as such it applies to native speakers as well as ESL-ers. Of course we're striving for communicability, but the thing is that the ESL speaker's experience in fandom isn't an all or nothing deal. It's not only the utterly unintelligible slobs who receive the kind of treatment the secret maker is alluding to: much of the time a person's grasp of English will reach a level where it's completely passable for everyday conversation, but is still quite noticeably flawed, and these imperfections will be targeted by the pedants. Depending on the person, it can easily take more than the barest amount of effort in order to go from this level of mastery to the next.

If their writing is merely riddled with spelling mistakes and lack of punctuations, the problem isn't their English, it's that they just don't care. That at least is easy to deal with. It sounds simple to say that you should just master the basics of the language and that will be enough, but the reality is quite different. ESL-ers generally run into problems with sentence structures and words-usage, which greatly impede communicability, but these issues are not easily overcome.

SA

[(Anonymous)]

That is actually my entire point.

To clarify, if someone doesn't point out the fact that they're ESL, then we won't know, and the grammar commentary will end up being harsh because we'll simply assume that they're lazy native speakers, not struggling ESL posters (or posters who otherwise have a legitimate reason for not knowing how the language functions). If we did know, then most decent people would be able to ignore the overabundance of flaws.

However, on the other hand, you can't just say that we have to forgive all ESLers because learning a language is hard, and fandom is a hobby. Yes, it's hard, and yes, it's a hobby. The point is that both sides need to meet each other halfway. The native speakers can't be completely lenient on ESLers who just don't want to make an effort to get the basics right (and we're talking about the very basics here), and the native speakers can't be harsh towards absolutely everyone.

Yes, pedants exist, but they'll always exist because the internet makes people socially stupid. However, not all native speakers will descend on you like vultures so long as you make an effort to be conscious of how language works - or at least display an interest in attempting to fit in with the culture of the community, language included. To worry about the pedants is a lot like worrying about the SJ warriors: not even the majority of fandom is like that unless you go out of your way to do very silly things that piss off a community enough to side with them.

As for sentence structures, it's understandable that this would impede communicability, but I'm not sure how many of the kinds of pedants we're talking about actually harp on that kind of thing. Perhaps it's prevalent in your fandoms, but it's certainly not in mine. The pedants in mine focus completely on the little details unless the sentence structure leaves them completely confused by what you're talking about.

The short of it is, we've been talking about both. The anon detailing a mastery over the basics of language was only talking about the basics of language, you're talking about more complex structures and an overall mastery, and I'm talking about a mix of both and general etiquette expected from (and the perceptions of) a native speaker.

[delwynmarch.livejournal.com]

if you use your instead of you're

That's a mistake typically made by natives and not by ESLs.

periods need to go after every sentence, you need to capitalize every name and the first word of every sentence, and so forth

These have absolutely nothing to do with being ESL. They are a "stylistic choice" made by people, both natives and ESLs, who choose to do it wrong.

spell out the word you and spell simple, common words like person or easily correctly

Again, most bad spellers are natives, not ESLs, precisely because ESLs need to check the dictionary to know how something is spelled, instead of assuming they already know.

Quite frankly, it's rather obvious that you have no idea what kind of mistakes ESLs make and are corrected for.

[nezhit.livejournal.com]

absolutely true
i am not a native speaker, but sometimes i notice mistakes in native speaker`s fics, and they are mostly of "what i hear is how i write it" variety

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

As for me, I would guess basic ESL mistakes involve trying to use the right word that nuance indicates is best (i.e., "I have to tell you" or "I need to tell you" - which aren't that different, but it depends on the situation ... nuance); and maybe articles and modifiers that make flow go better? Just a guess.

[delwynmarch.livejournal.com]

Yes, nuance is a common one. I've been told a few times that I used a word that was either too weak or too strong for the situation I was describing, and that it was jarring.

Articles can be a problem for native speakers of languages that don't use them. I could always tell when my Slovenian ex-husband was getting tired or too excited while speaking to French friends, because he would start dropping all his articles. He doesn't make that mistake in English because he's fully fluent in English, but that's a common enough problem with some other ESLs.

Difficulties with phrasal verbs is a very big sign. Either getting the wrong meaning when reading, or using the wrong verb/preposition when writing is extremely common among ESLs. Also, making mistakes on when to use an -ing form, when to drop a "to", and so on ("I want helping you", "I want help you", "I want for help you", you get the idea :P )

Tenses can trip even the most fluent ESLs, especially according tenses between the main clause and a subordinate clause. I don't think I've ever met an ESL who didn't get their tense wrong every once in a while - even down to getting a well-known irregular form wrong, when we get tired or are in a hurry, as in "I've went somewhere". My main current baffling issue on that matter is failing to remember the past form of "to seek". At some point, my brain just erased it, and it was only thanks to my spell-checker that I realised that "seeked" isn't right...

Using the wrong word/expression is a classic. I'll never not blush in embarrassment when remembering how, back when I was still a fresh exchange student in Canada, I once exclaimed to a friend at a church dance "You are so nice!" when I meant "You look so nice!" He looked at me funny and the girls there giggled, and I figured I'd said something wrong again, but I only figured it out a few months later. It becomes funny when you can spot a fellow native whatever because of such a mistake :P It's less funny when you end up saying something offensive because of it ("coloured" and "of colour" technically mean the same thing, but use the wrong one when talking about people, and watch the internet explode in your face.)

Punctuation can be another sign, especially in fics. When people are used to writing in their own language and start writing in English, they sometimes keep using the same punctuation, which can be anywhere from weird (up and down dialogue tags, no tags at all...) to downright grammatically wrong. Like, I didn't know that comma-split sentences were wrong in English; they are fine in French...

And in general there is the matter of wonky sentences. Not necessarily grammatically wrong, but just not what native speakers would say.

And this/that, at to a lesser extent here/there. I know I'm not the only one who can never get these right :D

Of course, this is just what I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other typical ESL mistakes, but none of them are along the lines of confusing "your/you're" or saying "should of" instead of "should have", because to an ESL who learned English the formal way, "your" and "you're" are very different things even if they somewhat sound the same, and "should of" just makes no freaking sense at all :P

[nusuth.livejournal.com]

This! I can always spot French speakers thanks to our unfortunate tendency to use commas where in English you'd use periods :)

[(Anonymous)]

And quite frankly, you're missing the point. The point, again, is that the argument is about basic English language usage. As in, the very building blocks of writing in English. It has nothing to do with what common mistakes beyond that. As in, if you're coherent and happen to make a few errors here and there because you're ESL, then people won't descend on you. If you, regardless of whether or not you're ESL, just don't care, then people will. So either way, yes, you'll have to make a minimal amount of effort to learn a written language before posting.

So... congrats on zeroing in on only a couple of lines of what I had to say instead of the whole picture?

[delwynmarch.livejournal.com]

Except that your "whole picture" goes straight against what the secret maker was saying. The anon you're defending was speaking of the basics of English, yes, but this isn't what OP was talking about, since judging by the secret itself, OP does master the basics of English.

It has nothing to do with what common mistakes beyond that. As in, if you're coherent and happen to make a few errors here and there because you're ESL, then people won't descend on you.

Yes, they will, and this is precisely what the secret maker is talking about, from what I understand. People can and do come down on you for making minor mistakes. And no, knowing that you're ESL doesn't necessarily stop them. In fact, and that can get hilarious, some people will come down on you even harder if they know you're ESL. "Hey, psst, I know I can't expect you to know that since you're ESL, but [this] is wrong." The funny part? These people are wrong more often than not.

So maybe it's time you stopped white-knighting an anon who clearly misunderstood what the secret was about?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not ESL, so take this with a grain of salt, but I also kind of wonder whether frequent errors such as you describe might also make it more difficult for other ESL readers to parse what the person is saying. My native familiarity with English allows me to "read around" you're/your substitutions and the like, but if I tried to read something with several errors like that in Spanish? I think I'd have a pretty hard time.