[ SECRET POST #1756 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1756 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 165 secrets from Secret Submission Post #251.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom.livejournal.com]

06. http://i51.tinypic.com/2uz48zt.jpg

[stella-down.livejournal.com]

there are a lot of insecure fangirls who need to point out spelling and grammatical errors to make themselves feel worthwhile.

what's entertaining is how often they themselves make errors, especially when they're ostensibly English majors. just ignore the pedants, OP.

[(Anonymous)]

It's because one of the signs of badfic is poor spelling and grammar. And with the best will in the world, I'm not going to be able to read a fic with repeated, glaring mistakes in it. It throws me straight out of the story.

(but this has never been a problem with the ESL authors I know - they're either twice as careful with their writing as the firstlanguagers, or they have betas go over it to fix their mistakes, or both. With the result that I now automatically assume that a poorly written fic is a sign of someone who just couldn't be bothered)

[netbug009.livejournal.com]

Not sure how I feel about this. Are you talking about plan old discussions where people point out your grammar to belittling you, or fanfics?

Because there's a world of difference IMO depending on which you're talking about. ^^;

[moirailcompass]

Feeling you, OP. But person above is right. Mind you, not all people who point out mistakes are like that, but typically the ones who are incredibly rude about it? Yea. Or they do so just to show what great scholars they are, so don't give them the satisfaction.

[streetcake.livejournal.com]

If the grammar is bad, I tend to assume that English isn't the person's first language.

I know alot of those "grammar nazis" are just nitpickers, but I think the whole thing started when people were afraid that typing on the internet would make everyone illiterate and stupid. Though I'm just guessin'.

[(Anonymous)]

My thoughts on this depend on the situation. If you're posting on LiveJournal or Tumblr where dominant language is ambiguous, then I agree that it's silly to assume automatically that you speak English as a first language. However, if you post on a community (i.e., a forum) where most of the members are from English-speaking countries, it really shouldn't be surprising to have people assume that you're also from an English-speaking country.

It also helps us differentiate between someone who has a good reason for writing the way they do and someone who's just an idiot. Believe it or not, there's a lot of people who speak English as a first language but don't understand the basics of how to write it. Some of the worst writers I've met are these, in fact. (Conversely, some of the best writers I know speak English as a second or third language and attribute their skills to the fact that they're very conscious of how the language works. This is neither here nor there, though, although I'm sure there's a completely separate point that someone could make out of that.) Sure, we can grant you the possibility that English isn't your first language, but how do you politely ask someone whose writing isn't the best if English is their first language? If it isn't, then awesome. If it is, then you've just successfully implied that the person you're addressing doesn't have a complete grasp on their dominant language. You could propose not to point out grammar and syntax at all, but when people point out that kind of thing, it's usually to help you improve your writing (unless you've met an ass hole).

I probably missed the point here, but the tl;dr version of the above is that there's the possibility, sure, but people point out language use to be on the safe side because it's not like the writers whose first language is English always write it decently. Warning that you're ESL gives us the heads up that we should go easier on you than on someone who actually doesn't care. It also means that if you're receptive to concrit, some of us would be more likely to go out of our way either to recommend beta readers to you or to provide as clear an explanation as possible to help you understand how things work.

Of course, if you just meant that people are ripping you apart because you're ESL and on a place where there's absolutely no reason why someone would automatically assume you're not, then yeah, those people are being dicks.

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's brave of you to write in a second language! I could never do it.

Unfortunately, putting your writing out there for the world to see, read, and enjoy also is putting it out there for anyone to see and make personal judgments about its quality. It's how we learn, by being told when we're doing something right and doing something wrong.

The world does not exist to provide only approbation to everyone, so as someone who is not completely proficient, you should probably expect that people will not see everything you do as fantastically perfect despite its inherent errors. The same goes for native speakers who make mistakes.

Seriously, people. If you're not prepared to be judged, then why are you putting it out there?

[pillmayken.livejournal.com]

(http://s835.photobucket.com/albums/zz274/pillmayken/gifs/?action=view&current=spndeanikr.gif)

I've seen far worse grammar and spelling in native speakers, to be honest. (Full disclosure: I'm ESL myself)

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not likely to point out bad grammar unless the secret is complaining about someone else's bad grammar (or the typo/mischosen word makes a good pun.) But there's a world of difference between secrets and fanfic where a beta is a possibility. Mind you, I've read some fics (and posted a few of my own) that could have used a better beta...

Ah well, I guess it comes down to just advising you to ignore the grammar and spelling nazi's beyond a silent acknowledgment of "oh, that's how you say/spell it" and go on to the comments that actually address your secret.

[(Anonymous)]

Unforunately, it isn't going to go away.

I suppose the only thing you can do is just remind them that isn't the point you are discussing. And if they still make it an issue just walk away... or if you insist on the last word, respond and never bother to look at their reply.

[(Anonymous)]

But if you're participating in an English-speaking community, reading English posts and writing comments in English, is it too much to ask for that you master basic English grammar and spelling? I'm ESL, but I feel like it's my obligation not to abuse other people's language. Writing in a different language, even if it's just a comment, is obviously more difficult, but if you want to do that, then put some effort in it. If you're too lazy to learn proper English, then maybe you should stay away from English-speaking communities. I'm sick of having to decipher barely understandable shit because someone was too lazy to look up a few words.

[weekendoffender.livejournal.com]

I've been in the football fandom for so long that now I just assume that anyone who's spelling or grammar is off are ESL.

Fuck the haters, bb. Most people aren't perfect at spelling & grammar, and I bet you the people who've jumped down your throat for your English aren't perfect either. I mean hell, my Belgian mate is better at English spelling & grammar then I am!

[kallanda-lee.livejournal.com]

I agree - up to a point. If I make blatant errors, I'm glad I can correct them. But nitpickers are just annoying - I'm not going to publish this or anything.

[mskye.livejournal.com]

Whenever some douchebag comes along correcting somebody's grammar, I always read the comment in Strong Bad's voice. It makes me smile.

[snappleandspam.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I make grammar mistakes most of the time, and I am a native speaker of English.

Your English in the secret looked good to me! I wouldn't know the difference.

[(Anonymous)]

six, I love you :)

[(Anonymous)]

Considering the grammar of many native speakers, no, I'm not going to assume bad grammar means someone is ESL. Word confusion, maybe, but bad grammar? Nope. Take it as a compliment, OP--most fandom people I know who are ESL have much better writing abilities than non-ESL, and when you mean, say, bore instead of boar, it pays to make a note of being ESL so people don't jump down your throat with "lol idiot."

Unfortunate that you have to warn for it, though.

I don't get this at all.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, I know that the Web is supposed to be less serious than RL and all that, but why is English supposed to be a subject where being wrong about something is forgiven just because someone isn't familiar with the subject matter? This doesn't hold true for math or politics or history or anything else. Why languages?

[(Anonymous)]

In my experience, ESL speakers and native English speakers tend to make different kinds of mistakes.

ESL mistakes will be more in the construction of the sentence (using "on" instead of "in", incorrect verb tenses, etc). They'll make mistakes that, if spoken out loud, would be immediately and obviously wrong to a native speaker.

Native speakers, on the other hand, tend to make mistakes that would not be obvious when spoken aloud. Homophones is a big one: their/there/they're, your/you're, etc. ESLs are actually pretty good at differentiating homophones, because those words usually aren't similar in their native tongue and confusing them is unlikely.

I usually find it pretty easy to tell the difference between an ESL speaker and someone who just doesn't proofread their shit. But maybe I'm more attuned to it, being an ESL speaker myself (albeit one who uses English in her everyday life, at home and at work, and not just on the internet).

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you've had to deal with such rudeness, OP. I think many people like to judge and rant without stopping to consider that things may not be what they seem.

Your English seems very good, by the way. :)

I'm part of a couple Spanish communities right now for a fandom I'm in. Spanish is my second language and in my experience with it (both online and offline) people have been nothing but encouraging and understanding about the mistakes I make with it.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a native English speaker with a good vocab but I always re-read my posts ten times to ensure I haven't dropped a word.

Mostly though at some point in all that I close the tab and don't post. Personally I find writing comments to be very stressful and a fear of having my spelling or grammar picked over is a major part of that.

[(Anonymous)]

What really annoys me is whe i have to correct someone on grammar or spelling in their fanfiction, knowing they are (not always, but mostly) from the USA. How can it be that someone native to the language has worse knowledge of their own language than me?! And then those who proclaim in their profile that they are at a University. Goddamm, learn your own language!

[kryptoncat.livejournal.com]

Word. Good luck out there, OP.

[judi42.livejournal.com]

Word.