[ SECRET POST #1892 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1892 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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02.
[How I Met Your Mother]


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03.
[White Collar]


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04.
[Smash]


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05.
[How I Met Your Mother]


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06.
[Revenge]


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07.
[The Hunger Games]


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08.
[Yu-Gi-Oh]


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09.
[White Collar]


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10.
[Obscurus Lupa, Subspecies]


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11.
[Castleville]


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12.
[Gintama]


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13.
[The Cat Returns]


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14.
[Mythbusters]


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15.
[Invasion of the Body Snatchers]


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16.
[Titanic]


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17.
[All Dogs go to Heaven]


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18.
[Hatoful Boyfriend]


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19.
[Pokemon]


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20.
[Phantom of the Opera]


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21.
[The Middle]


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22.
[life on mars]


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23.
[Scrubs]


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24.
[A Goofy Movie]


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25.
[Nerimon/Alex Day]


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26.
[Katie McGrath]


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27.
[Chuck]


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28.
[Top Chef Season 9]


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29.
[The Vampire Diaries]


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30.
[The Vampire Diaries]


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 045 secrets from Secret Submission Post #270.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

(frozen comment)

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

No one ever asks if that's what she really wants or if she's just rebelling against what society tells her she can't do without actually wanting it in the long term.

I'm not one of those people. When I say women should question their choices, I mean all of them. Whether she's going to med school because she really wants to or it's the family practice, or if she really wants to be a housewife and not doing it to please her ultra-conservative family. Every choice should be questioned no matter what it is.

I'm not even advocating others telling women what to do; only that all women should stop for a minute and examine why they are making the choices they are and ask themselves if it's what they really want and not part of someone else's expectation.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

Why should only women do it then? Are men somehow above the influence of society? After all, there is just as much social pressure on a man to be masculine and fall into traditional male roles as there is on women and that has just as much effect on their choices. Narrowing it down to only women is basically just demeaning women as being less capable of making her own choices even though both genders are influenced by society telling them what they should and should not want to do.

(frozen comment)

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

I think men also need to question their choices, yes. But not nearly to the same degree as women, because men don't have the same history of their opinions, identity, and autonomy being devalued the same way women have. Even the traditional male gender role grew out of not being "feminine" (and therefore weak).

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

See, what makes me dislike your argument is crap like the thread above where you're demeaning a woman for not following the same line of thinking as you. She disagrees with your point so clearly she doesn't think about her life or her choices or else she'd fall into line with your opinions like a good little girl.

That's what this comes down to and that's what the problem is with the line of thinking that all of a woman's choices need to be questioned. Whenever that choice doesn't line up with what you (general you here) think, that means she's obviously not questioning it enough and is influenced by society. The only way to be considered to have questioned yourself enough is to fall into line with the 'right' way of thinking.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

I think men also need to question their choices, yes. But not nearly to the same degree as women, because men don't have the same history of their opinions, identity, and autonomy being devalued the same way women have.

Wow. Sorry, but speaking as a guy, that is horrible. You're unfairly putting most of the onus of questioning choices on women, and demeaning them for it if they don't go along with you, while if a guy were to make those same choices and not listen to you, you'd barely give them a meh.

It's sexist.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

speaking as a guy

Stopped reading right there. Kindly shut your hole, please.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

No really. I'm asking you to question my choices harder.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Speaking as a woman, I agree with him. Unless you can judge an argument based off something other than sex of the speaker, kindly shut your hole.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Here here!

He may not have the personal experience like women do, but if the points are valid, they're valid no matter who says them.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

When the issue is about feminism? Hell yes I can. It's something (cis)men need to shut the hell up about when they're the ones who benefit from the current system and have never been subject to the degree of manipulation that women have.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

Even when they're acknowledging that there is a feminist who is permitting them privileges that that same feminist is denying other women, on top of their many real-world privileges?

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

If you're a woman who thinks you're such a special little snowflake and not like all those other women so much that patriarchal society hasn't had any influence at all on what you want, then I think you're naive and a bit of an idiot. End of story. Men don't have this problem because they haven't had a history of being dehumanized for their gender the way women have. They've afforded themselves that privilege.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

Why only cis-men?

Oh I know, because trans-men are not ~real men, amirtite.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

No, because trans men, on account of having female bodies pre-op and thus being seen as women for a significant chunk of their lives, haven't benefited from male privilege, you dolt.

(frozen comment)

[insanenoodlyguy.livejournal.com]

Why? You might actually want to include the other half of the population in the conversation if your going to change the world.

Especially considering by your own declarations that we're the half running it all. We do happen to be involved in, you know, every issue being talked of on here.

Or do you just want to have a turn at marginalizing somebody? Oh noes! I'm going to piss you off now by pointing out that your willingness to dismiss somebody's opinion based on their gender means you'd have made a great status quo maintaining man.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

Because men have had the last few thousand years to talk about women's issues, and it's high time they shut up and listened for once instead of trying to talk over us. It happens every goddamn time you let a man talk about feminism; it stops being about the women and instead becomes All About Him.

(frozen comment)

[insanenoodlyguy.livejournal.com]

Are you the same anon as before who started this particular vein of discussion, if so, seeing as how you responded in an actual reasonable way, I hope you will accept my apology for the accusation of marginalization. The face you responded at all means I was wrong on that account. If not, then I appreciate your offering of an answer significantly more relevant then "Male, shut your hole"

If that's the case however, you probably shouldn't put a discussion up in a place where there's so many of us dudes. Most people, upon seeing a discussion that interests them, will want to get involved. Being told they can't play cause of gender, is, well... you probably can finish that thought for me. Let's face it, Fandom!Secrets really isn't a girls club.

I suppose in part it depends on the goal of the discussion, but it seems to me that the guy that was original posted to made a valid point. Agree with that point or don't, the argument of "you're male, you can't talk about this" is, well, pretty damn flawed. Simply from a debate standpoint the lack of acknowledgement of the point by devolving into personal attacks is on par with all the dismissive attacks folks would cite on here as bigoted, sexist or ablest. The context of oppression doesn't change the fact that it's a shit argument, turning it around just proves that all groups have assholes.

It'd be one thing to tell a guy that no, sexism has not affected him in the same way or the same magnitude as it has affected women, which from what I've seen is the point encompassing or behind many of the situations where it becomes "All about him." In this case however, a guy pointed out (and I agree with him, though I think my argument itself is neutral here) that the poster above him was unfairly putting women's decisions under a ridiculously fine level of scrutiny that seems to require every decision to be judged against if it's that person's desires or if it's society's, whereas men apparently shouldn't do that just because they haven't been devalued to the same degree (Isn't this that society the poster has all the problems with that they want to change)? Especially considering the conversation suggests that any girl who goes with society's expectations must be it's slave, I think the point can be acknowledged, a position argued, clarified, or rejected. Otherwise, you'll have even those on your side turn from your inadequate tactics.

TL;DR This isn't a girls only board. Guys are here. Guys might have something to say. And if their argument isn't crap, a crap dismissal means the crappy one is you.

(frozen comment)

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

So it's a double standard about how hard women and men have to work, but it's okay because it's based on feminism. Keep constant vigilance about yourselves girls, it's the only way you can win the approval of feminism!

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

Even if there is an outside influence, who cares so long as it makes the individual happy with their decision? Everyone does things with expectations from other people.

If I go to med school instead of research because my family wants me to be an MD does that make my choice not valid?

No one exists in a vacuum; pressures are part of making any choice. Making a choice with my family in mind does not make it any less of my decision!

Making a decision in a void is not the only right way to make a decision. You are telling women how to make their choices.

(frozen comment)

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

Even if there is an outside influence, who cares so long as it makes the individual happy with their decision?

That's my point, actually. I never said that women should never do what other people suggest for them; only that before making the decision, we should simply question whether this is what we want. Going to med school because that's what will make you happy and it just happens to be the family practice as well is a perfectly valid choice. Going to med school because it's the family practice whether you'll be happy with it or not...isn't. Making a decision in a void is impossible because, as you said, no one exists in a vacuum. But putting other people's happiness ahead of your own when it comes to important life choices like careers, marriage, whether to children, etc. is selling yourself short.

You are telling women how to make their choices.

No I'm not, actually. I'm just saying women should think about these choices and the context in which they're made, and consider their own happiness before anyone else's when deciding what they want to do.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

I never said that women should never do what other people suggest for them; only that before making the decision, we should simply question whether this is what we want.

You are deciding how women make their choices: stop it.

But putting other people's happiness ahead of your own when it comes to important life choices like careers, marriage, whether to children, etc. is selling yourself short.

No. You do not get to make people's decisions for them like that. Sit down and shut up.

No I'm not, actually. I'm just saying women should think about these choices and the context in which they're made, and consider their own happiness before anyone else's when deciding what they want to do.

I think you are missing the irony of this statement. "I'm not telling women how to make choices, only they have to make decision the way I say they have to make them and have the same priorities as I do."

(frozen comment)

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

How is suggesting (not demanding, either, but just suggesting) that women think about their decisions and truly consider their own happiness "making decisions for them" or even "deciding how women should choose"?

Are you saying that not considering your own happiness and what you want when making a choice that directly impacts the rest of your life is a good thing?

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

I am saying that as a human being I have the right to make my own decisions anyway I damn choose. Yes that means sometimes putting someone else's happiness before my own.

How is suggesting (not demanding, either, but just suggesting) that women think about their decisions and truly consider their own happiness "making decisions for them" or even "deciding how women should choose"?

You ain't suggesting diddly. You are insisting that's the only way to make decisions for yourself and everyone else is making bad decisions and/or only following The Man.

I [said] that before making the decision, we should simply question whether this is what we want.

I'm just saying women should think about these choices and the context in which they're made, and consider their own happiness before anyone else's when deciding what they want to do.

When I say women should question their choices, I mean all of them. Whether she's going to med school because she really wants to or it's the family practice, or if she really wants to be a housewife and not doing it to please her ultra-conservative family. Every choice should be questioned no matter what it is.

I'm not even advocating others telling women what to do; only that all women should stop for a minute and examine why they are making the choices they are and ask themselves if it's what they really want and not part of someone else's expectation.

if you don't even want to bother thinking about the choices you make and simply going with impulse.

And I'm sorry that the truth that you (nor any other woman) is as independent and free thinking as you believe is hard to face.

We aren't our own people when we're constantly bombarded with messages from society that say otherwise. As long as pressure from gender roles factor into our choices, they aren't truly ours, and we have to be aware of that.

We stop questioning everything we do when we are given the same rights and equal treatment and are free from oppressive expectations specifically tied to our gender. Until then? Yes, we examine our choices and why we're making them, and whether it's what we really want or what we think we want because that's what we've been told we're supposed to want.

I see a lot of "My way is the only way," and not a lot else.

(frozen comment)

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

You ain't suggesting diddly. You are insisting that's the only way to make decisions for yourself and everyone else is making bad decisions and/or only following The Man.

If you go back and read, notice that I say "should" rather than "must." "Should" in vernacular usage implies a suggestion rather than a demand ("this is a good idea, but you're free to ignore it"). "Must" is what would've made it imperative, and I avoided that word purposely.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

HA!

In this case, actions speak louder than words. You've done nothing here but demean women's decisions because they don't agree with you. You are a bad feminist. You don't have to personally support every decision every woman makes, but you know what? You don't even support her ability to choose a decent decision for herself unless made by your shitty standards.

What's worse is that it's not just "you" saying it. You're acting like it's the only possible way for any valid decision to be made. The rest of us are just poor weak women who don't know how to make good decisions until you show us the light. Oh, but only women, men you won't give grief to.

Yeah, you're a misogynist in feminist's clothing.