fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2023 ]

[ SECRET POST #2023 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2023 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 066 secrets from Secret Submission Post #289.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I didn't know where to go with this, but I could really use some advice. Sorry it's a novel, but here goes...

I have a friend with whom I've been communicating via email for seven years. We met through fandom for a musician, but our friendship has evolved beyond it. We've shared details about our families, lives, and ambitions, but we mostly talk about inconsequential, fun things. When serious subject matter does come up she listens and is always prepared to contribute meaningfully.

The problem is, listening seems to come with limits for her. I've noticed that whenever a convo gets to a point where she no longer feels comfortable, she stops mailing and then starts a new one later. The most recent situation revolves around sexuality. While she doesn't actively dislike a person for their sexuality, I can't tell if she's terribly accepting of it. She said has been hit on by women, which can be an understandably unpleasant experience regardless of the sex of the aggressor, but she then said that she is "very uncomfortable" that people might perceive her as gay-- it read a little angry, as if she saw being a lesbian as a character flaw or something.

We're currently in the midst of a really interesting discussion about the person we're a fan of and the speculation about his sexuality-- and why the defensiveness I've seen people express regarding the issue bothers me. To be honest, I've done most of the talking. The letter veered into a place that left me compelled to be blunt about how abhorrent I find the thinly veiled homophobia I've seen here and there in our fan community. I didn't even use the most direct language I could have, fearing that she may feel I was targeting her, but I was straightforward about my overall opinion.

She sent me a reply four days later. She replied to the first, more casual half of the email. Then it ended abruptly. She explained that she'd "lost" the half of the email with my thoughts. I felt a little patronized and decided I wasn't going to let it go. I played along, citing the "lost" half to an unfortunate email provider fail, and quite promptly re-sent her the half of my letter she failed to respond to.

Over two weeks passed. We post at the same forum, so I know she's around. I was pretty sure of what her next email was going to be. She was going to apologize for not replying sooner-- life getting in the way and all. Then she'd expect me to want to launch back into polite, casual conversation as if our last conversation never happened, and expect me to not feel dismissed. I just got her latest email. That's exactly what she did.

I'm prepared to confront her about her dodging the subject(s). The only thing though is that I'm not sure how to have a convo about her unwillingness to have a convo, ha, especially since I really can't force her to have a convo she's uncomfortable with. I know she's not being malicious. The thing is though, I want to know why she's uncomfortable, and take the opportunity to have an open discussion about it. We write letters to talk, so let's talk. I don't want her to feel put on the spot or ashamed-- in fact, I want her to feel safe telling me what she thinks, even though I'm pretty sure I disagree with her. I've gotten emails about extremely turbulent times in her life, and even when I don't know how to respond right away, I never ignore things she has to say. When I disagree with something, I tell her.

I don't want to sever our friendship, and I'm don't even know if this is a situation worth severing for. A part of me wonders if I "should" be friends with someone who can't have an honest, frank discussion about things I have strong opinions about. I wonder if I'm overreacting. I suppose you can only expect a certain amount of investment from someone you talk to primarily through mail, no matter how long you've been talking. After all, if we were sitting together in person, she wouldn't be able to get up and leave.

So should I tell her that I'm concerned? How? What do I do if she refuses to acknowledge my feelings?

I don't know. (yes, yes, that's super helpful, I know)

It really depends on what you want out of the relationship and what you're willing to put up with. If you want this relationship to grow and to continue to grow, then I think you're going to have to tell her how you feel about the situation and why you're bothered. At that point you can decide whether you're okay with agreeing to disagree or if her response will determine whether or not you continue the friendship.

If you're satisfied with the level of friendship you have, then I would just drop the situation and then avoid the issues that you know she's not going to respond well to. You do seem to get a lot out of the relationship you already have with her, so this would probably be the best way to preserve that.

*hugs*

OP here.

Thanks for the insight and the much needed hugs. Deep down I know that confronting her head on is what I'm going to have to do. I think the bond we've developed so far deserves that much. I'm a little afraid it might mean the end of our relationship as we know it though.

And that's the really sucky part.

But people can surprise you. They can grow and change, and if you can frame this convo in a way that lets her know how much this means to you without being accusatory or meanspirited but honestly concerned, her response might surprise you.

Re: friendship troubles...

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-18 00:01 (UTC) - Expand

Re: friendship troubles...

lunabee34 - 2012-07-18 00:06 (UTC) - Expand

Re: friendship troubles...

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-18 00:13 (UTC) - Expand

Re: friendship troubles...

lunabee34 - 2012-07-18 03:32 (UTC) - Expand

a little ot

diet_poison - 2012-07-18 13:32 (UTC) - Expand

Re: a little ot

lunabee34 - 2012-07-18 13:58 (UTC) - Expand

Re: a little ot

diet_poison - 2012-07-18 15:20 (UTC) - Expand

Re: a little ot

lunabee34 - 2012-07-19 00:59 (UTC) - Expand

Re: a little ot

diet_poison - 2012-07-19 18:52 (UTC) - Expand

Re: a little ot

lunabee34 - 2012-07-20 00:48 (UTC) - Expand

Re: a little ot

diet_poison - 2012-07-20 16:09 (UTC) - Expand

Re: a little ot

lunabee34 - 2012-07-20 20:52 (UTC) - Expand

You can't and shouldn't force a conversation out of her that she doesn't want to have. And yes, if you were sitting together in person, she indeed could get up and leave.

I don't know what her reticence means. You don't know what it means. But you need to decide for yourself if you can handle not knowing her particular views on this particular issue. But if I were you, I'd stop pestering her before she makes it a moot point and ends things herself (unless that's what you're hoping for so you don't have to be the one to make think about/make the cut anymore...)

Also, what happens if she does hold views you disagree with? Would you then keep pushing her to accept your worldview over her own? Would you use it as a convenient excuse to drop her friendship? Really, all you can do is either accept your friend as she is, or don't.

same anon

I hope I haven't been pestering her... things come up in conversation and I express how I feel, I'd like to think I don't come across aggressively.

Of course, I would never push my worldview on her. I just want to know she's open to sharing, I have no interest in abandoning someone because we disagree. I don't know though, because we haven't talked about it.

But what if she's not open to sharing? What if she feels like her views are her views and nobody's business but her own? Some people are only comfortable talking about particular subjects, and that's not an indictment on the person they're talking with nor is it a shortcoming of their own.

Upthread, you said:
Deep down I know that confronting her head on is what I'm going to have to do. I think the bond we've developed so far deserves that much.

And I'm going to be really blunt here and say that reads like a load of bullshit. The "bond [you've] developed" if it's so great, it deserves your respect, not rounds of "but why don't we talk about all these issues you clearly don't want to talk about!"

Re: friendship troubles...

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-18 00:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: friendship troubles...

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-18 01:01 (UTC) - Expand

Re: friendship troubles...

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-18 01:37 (UTC) - Expand

She doesn't want to talk about it, get the hint and let it go. Is it really that horribly important to your relationship with her?

same anon
No, I suppose not, it doesn't get in the way of the bulk of what we discuss. But sometimes not being able to to talk to her about what's on my mind feels like not being to share all of myself without her being disgusted or irritated-- and maybe that's the case, and maybe that's okay. I acknowledge that that might just be where the boundaries are drawn.

If you and this person consider each other friends, and there are topics that she wants to avoid, then she at least owes you the courtesy of saying, "I'd rather not get into that issue, please; let's change the subject." Straight-up ignoring the things you say to her and then pretending the conversation never happened is just plain rude. If she doesn't want to talk about homosexuality or whatever else with you, that's fine, but there's a difference between asking to avoid the topic, and sticking her fingers in her ears and going, "la la la I can't hear you" -- which is the equivalent of what she's doing.

Yeah this. The friend is coming off as way more immature here than the OP. I can't believe other people's responses in calling the OP rude, when the OP seems to be a pretty nice person.

This. I'm surprised that people seem to think blowing someone off like the friend is doing is ok. If said friend doesn't want to talk about something, they owe it to the conversation partner to plainly state, "I don't want to talk about [x]".

she then said that she is "very uncomfortable" that people might perceive her as gay-- it read a little angry, as if she saw being a lesbian as a character flaw or something.

I don't know what to say about the friendship aspect, other than I hope it all works out, but this doesn't necessarily read as nefarious as you think. A lot of people jump on the "Well what's so wrong with being gay?!!" attack wagon whenever anyone is bothered that someone thinks them gay -- and for some people they really do see "gay" as a flaw.

But for a lot of people? ... People don't like feeling misunderstood. Whether it's over sexuality, gender identity, or even just a point they're trying to make in conversation: we all want to feel like we are making ourselves clear and being perceived in the way we want to be perceived. This is not an emotion that only belongs to the LGBT spectrum. And I think it's really easy for somebody to be misunderstood, feel angry at themselves for somehow not being clearer/more overt and blasting that out toward other people.

So, it might not necessarily be "OMG, they think I' a lesbo, THE HORROR!" but rather "godammit, why doesn't anyone see who I am?! (What am I doing wrong?)"

same anon
Yeah, that's totally true. I have absolutely no idea how she really feels. I only made the assumption that she saw it more as, "THE HORROR!" because she's since gone as far as to end the discussion.

Thanks, I hope it works out too.

Well, you asked for advice, so here goes.

You are being rude. Like, really rude. Whatever your friend's opinions on the subject, she has apparently decided not to share them. It could be because she knows you would disagree with them and this subject is important to you, so she doesn't want to put any strain on her relationship with you. It could be because she has had some personal experience that makes talking about this subject uncomfortable and difficult. It could be for some other reason. Whatever her reasons, not only is she allowed not to talk about something, you pushing at her so hard is not doing anything but validating that decision. If someone were pushing at me about something the way you've described, I wouldn't feel safe talking about that subject with them, even if I agreed with them completely.

Let me further point something out. Suppose your friend does disagree with you. You say these are things you have strong opinions about? Then odds are, she already knows what they are. And, probably because she respects you and values her relationship with you, she has decided to let you have the field on those issues when the two of you interact. Even if you disagree, she has ceded you the floor and offered your voice no objections or arguments. She's letting you win without a fight.

You have every right to choose your friends based on whatever criteria you set. If one of those criteria is the willingness to talk about these issues, then that's your decision. But she has every right to not talk about something. So you need to make a decision. Do you respect her enough to let her let go when she chooses, or is it more important that you have the answers you want?

Edited 2012-07-18 00:56 (UTC)

same anon
Hm, maybe I have been, somewhere. I never meant to be insensitive. I didn't push (I don't think...?)-- this hasn't happened often or anything. I was just speaking my mind. Though it's true, I don't know what's at the root of her silence. I can live with her not wanting to talk about things, or leaving me to my thoughts on different subjects whenever they come up. But that she disregarded all of a letter did bother me. I wish she would at least tell me she'd rather talk about something else.

It doesn't sound like OP was pushing her friend at all, really. I'm puzzled as to where you got that. Nor did they state any action they'd done that was rude...

OP already knew that their friend avoided this particular subject as she had seen it in the past. Which doesn't mean it's taboo, or can never be talked about, but it does mean that the friend has made it clear she has nothing to add to the discussion. Instead of respecting this decision, OP has decided to try and drag some statement out of her friend, either by maneuvering her, as much as possible via email anyway, into a situation where it would be rude not to respond, or by simply getting in her face and demanding one. And all this having known before she started that her friend doesn't prefer to discuss these things. When you've got someone you know in advance is uncomfortable talking about something, but you deliberately, and a now a few times in a row, according to OP's account, put it before them in such a way as to try and make it very hard, or at least rude, for them not to talk about that subject, that is being pushy by its very nature. Which is, barring some external circumstance that makes the discussion urgent or necessary, rude.

Ignoring someone in the middle of a conversation, and then lying to their face about having "lost half the email" isn't the sort of thing someone does if they ~respect you and value their relationship with you~. If they actually respect you, they'll say, "I'm not comfortable with that topic, let's please take the conversation somewhere else.

The OP hasn't said that ze seeks out topics that the friend is uncomfortable with, but when they come up organically in conversation, the friend starts ignoring hir for days and pretends the entire discussion never happened. That's a shitty way to treat a friend, and doesn't suggest anything like respect on the friend's part. It's not about "getting the answer you want" -- it's about wanting to be treated like a person and a friend, rather than having someone pretend you don't exist when they don't like your opinions.

I'd just tell her something like:

"Sometimes, I bring up some topics that you avoid or ignore. I never meant to make you feel uncomfortable, I just wanted to share my opinions on topics that are important to me, and it hurts me a little that you keep silent instead of telling me "I don't want to discuss that, it's private to me". Every time, I fear that I might have upset you and that you might not want to be my friend any more. If you don't want to talk about those things, could you please tell me so? I will respect your decision, and never bring them up again, but I would like to know."

But with more tact, I guess.

I have to say, all this recent push for complete "openness" these days doesn't sit entirely well with me. People ought to be able to have their thoughts they don't wish to discuss - if they're not directly hurting others with it or pushing legislators to make laws enforcing them. It sounds like she's aware of your beliefs and rather than hurt your feelings or lose your friendship, she'd rather avoid the issue.

People have their thoughts and opinions and secrets. And while I don't like the ones you think she holds, either, I'm not sure you have the right to force her hand on this. I have friends that I've had for a long time (we're talking 15 years or more), that there are just certain things we don't agree on and we don't discuss them ... because we want to remain friends.

You have to accept people have flaws that don't make them bad people, and that they don't have to agree with you. If that's not what you're trying to do, then I've misread this; but it just sort of sounds that way.

Communication is key, though. If she doesn't want to discuss certain topics then she should really say so. Silence is a terrible tactic, because it can be misconstrued in a lot more ways than words can be. I don't think the OP is wrong to want her friend not to just ignore certain topics.

Many desires that are not wrong are nonetheless misplaced. As adults, we all have to learn to read clues that certain things will not be addressed and are not OK to keep after, hounding. OP is dealing with a friend, not a congressional panel that must address inequalities; if OP doesn't like this, they can drop the woman as a friend. That's her right - but forcing the conversations OP wants to have is not.

Re: friendship troubles...

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-18 20:33 (UTC) - Expand

Re: friendship troubles...

veronica_rich - 2012-07-19 00:06 (UTC) - Expand

If the friend doesn't want to talk about certain issues, great; then she should ask to change the topic and to avoid the subject. Completely blowing off/ignoring someone you otherwise consider a friend is not a respectful or constructive way to keep your opinions private.

Unless the OP has learned mind control to make the friend say what she wants when she wants her to bring it up, either way, I was under the impression the question was "what can I as the OP do in this situation?" and answered accordingly.