[ SECRET POST #2082 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2082 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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03.
[Fate/Zero]


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04.


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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]












05. [SPOILERS for Journey Into Mystery/Everything Burns]



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06. [SPOILERS for Avengers]



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07. [SPOILERS for Sweeney Todd]



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08. [SPOILERS]



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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]














09. [WARNING for depression/suicide]

[Wilby Wonderful (2004)]


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10. [WARNING for abuse]

[True Blood]


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11. [WARNING for rape]



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12. [WARNING for suicide/self-harm]

[Alex Gaskarth/All Time Low]


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13. [WARNING for abuse]



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14. [WARNING for abuse/bullying]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #297.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ],.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

So let's wank about something else because this shit is boring.

Was anyone else bothered by Coulson's line about how "this wasn't going to work if there wasn't something to [avenge, presumably]"? Like, I like the dude and all, but how fucking arrogant is it to assume that you'll be the only person out of 80 innocent dead people the superheroes will give enough of a shit about to do anything? And to make that your last words?

I mean it turned out they really did apparently only care enough once S.H.I.E.L.D. Guy died, but that just made it worse.

[(Anonymous)]

I just took it as jolting them into realizing "oh shit, this is actually serious" rather than "they wouldn't give a fuck about anyone who died that they didn't know".

Because they did care before that, they cared quite a lot, they just kept arguing about it and forgetting that working together was better than going "I will do whatever *I* think is right and fuck all you other morons" (which is especially clear with Steve (everyone just shut up and listen to Fury how are you so unprofessional omg), Tony (trololol Fury's playing us all and you guys suck for being afraid of Bruce), Thor (IDGAF about your plans and shit I just want my brother to stop being evil) and Natasha (you people are all incompetent idiots and I'm not going to dignify your idiocy with a response because SHIELD is better than you)).

I think people overstate Coulson's importance to the Avengers' teaming up. He was a catalyst more than a cause.

[(Anonymous)]

But in what way should a superhero need a guy whose name they know dying to realize that close to a hundred civilians dying is something they need to stop at all costs, fuck Fury? I mean, I know that the Avengers aren't saints and they've got a pair of assassins in their midst, but this is a team that includes Captain "I Hate Bullies" Goddamned America and the movie even made Hitler analogues with the guy who's killing all these people.

I just wish the writers could have found a different way to the obligatory getting-over-their-differences resolution. Also, that still doesn't explain why Coulson was so confident that he could do to motivate 6 superheroes what 80 other equally innocent people could not. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

[intrigueing]

Because they HAD stopped it. They already caught Loki and were just trying to recover the tesseract before something else happened.

What exactly did you want them to do? Say "lol no, instead of using all this state-of-the-art advanced technology to find the tesseract, lets randomly do...something else?"

[seiberwing]

I'm not sure Coulson thought the Avengers would avenge him so much as avenge the sum total of the shit Loki pulled on the Helicarrier.

[(Anonymous)]

Hmm, maybe, but again, most of the casualties weren't on the helicarrier at all. All the helicarrier really housed people-wise was a single dude some of them liked who worked for an organization everyone was pissed off at at the moment.

[seiberwing]

I am 100% certain that more people were killed and injured during Coulson in that battle, not to mention Loki's psychological manipulation of them and the way he used them to accomplish his own goals.

[blueonblue]

That line really annoyed me. "So that's what it does," or whatever he said after firing would have been perfectly fine as last words and then we could see the others make the decision to avenge him.

[intrigueing]

Except...that's not really what happened at all?

From an in-universe perspective the Helicarrier attack alone would've been more than sufficient to make them get serious about the threat, because that's when they first realized there was a threat at all. Remember, they had already captured Loki and the only thing they were doing between Loki's capture and the Helicarrier attack was cruising around looking for the tesseract so that they could return it to SHIELD and de-brainwash Loki's minions. And so that's exactly what they were doing. They cared exactly as much as they needed to about the threat (until of course they devolved into that shouting match which allowed Clint to catch them off-guard, and that wasn't due to "not giving enough of a shit to do anything" because they were doing everything they could, it was a fuck-up which they paid for). They cared about the threat -- what they didn't care about was the team.

Coulson's death was important more from an out-of-universe perspective, because it made the threat not only serious, but personally emotional and focused for both the characters and the audience. It gave Fury a reason to talk about how he still believed in heroes and tell them why he wanted the Avengers to be an actual team, not "a bunch of people who happen to be looking for the tesseract right now", and a reason for them to take that idea seriously and actually decide to become a real team.

[(Anonymous)]

Can we, then, agree that it wasn't very well communicated? It was the writers' agenda to make us sad and having Coulson acknowledge himself as more emotionally important than all those other people (and yeah, "they couldn't do anything about that stuff at the time!!" the point is they weren't enough later to get the heroes to realize that they needed to cooperate) to serve this purpose makes the character come off as kind of a tool. I feel they sabotaged themselves by setting up the death count for a joke and having one guy be the catalyst for a close-to-tears oh-god-so-sad-look-at-the-trading-cards epiphany that brought the team together later.

See, this is much more fun than Loki wank.

[truxillogical]

I'm still not seeing how that's poorly communicated. Like intrigueing said, they wanted Loki stopped. Each one of them (maybe not so much Bruce) would have personally gone down solo and tried to beat Loki into submission. But Cap, Tony, and Thor...you've got three Type A Leader personalities right there and they weren't playing well with each other.

The movie did a pretty good job of conveying that Coulson's death was the catalyst for the team working together (not "beating the bad guy"). I'm not seeing how Loki racking up an impressive death count prior to Coulson's has anything to do with that. The problems the team had working together were personally emotional problems--they needed a catalyst that was also personally emotional.

[intrigueing]

Nah, sorry, can't agree, because it wasn't badly communicated to me at all. It seemed perfectly clear and totally reasonable and realistic for them to do what Fury asked and work in the same general area to try to stop Loki, but only be personally emotionally affected and have a desire to become an actual team after someone they knew got killed due to their own arrogance and stupidity. There's a nice mildly tragic note to that sequence of events, which fit very well (IMO), because I would've found it extremely OOC for any of the five to be gung-ho about teamwork right off the bat.

Remember, it's not like they were a team and knew they were a team and were thinking "hey, we should be a team" from the start. They only realized that if they had just cooperated, they could have stopped the whole mess after the attack happened. Steve thought he was there because of his knowledge of the tesseract, Bruce thought he was there because of his scientific expertise. Natasha was there because she worked for SHIELD. Thor was only there to retrieve Loki. Tony was the only one other than Natasha who knew about the Avengers Initiative, and not-so-coincidentally was the only one to do any team bonding (encouraging Bruce to consider the idea of being a hero) and was the one to say "so hey, I think Fury's got some other agenda here, anyone wanna check it out?" Bruce even ridicules the idea that letting so many different personalities working in close proximity was anything other than disastrous "what are we? A team? Oh no, we're a time-bomb."

But that's what I got. If you felt the logic of their actions didn't come across clearly, it's a valid criticism to make, because yes, the plots of movies should be clearly communicated to the audience.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean it turned out they really did apparently only care enough once S.H.I.E.L.D. Guy died, but that just made it worse.

Uh, you do realize that before "SHIELD Guy" died, Loki was in their custody? i.e., not killing anyone, and not doing anything dangerous? And they didn't care enough to do...what exactly? What were they supposed to be doing instead of tracking down the tesseract?

The only thing they did wrong was fight amongst themselves and thereby let themselves get ambushed. It wasn't like people were being slaughtered left and right while they sat around going "nope, Imma just chillax here on this nifty flying aircraft carrier and just let everyone die."

[(Anonymous)]

Be angry and remorseful in a way half as resonant as they were when Coulson died, maybe? I mean, when they (the writers who control everything about the story) had a character acknowledge how many people were killed, they then had another guy make a joke about it ("He's adopted.") Like, why bring it up if you're going to later establish that all those innocents weren't enough to get them to stop fighting amongst themselves?

[seiberwing]

I think up until that point they understood that Loki needed to be stopped, they just didn't realize that they couldn't do it alone. Aside Bruce (who didn't want to be there at all), the Avengers didn't want each other around, they figured they could handle the job better without some egotistical billionaire or alien god getting in their way.

The Helicarrier thing was a slap in the face to make them get their shit together and realize that they were more vulnerable than they thought they were.

[truxillogical]

Like, why bring it up if you're going to later establish that all those innocents weren't enough to get them to stop fighting amongst themselves?

Oh, so that is exactly what your issue with it is.

Well.

Because people are human beings, and even heroes (especially Marvel heroes) aren't always perfectly good and noble types who instinctively Do The Right Thing. Tony is and has always been a huge, massive jerk with an ego the size of a planet, who is so easily distracted by his own brilliance that, well...yeah, I'm not sure what you were expecting from him. Tony wants to be a good guy, and yeah, he'll go to bat for the innocents in danger on his own, in his own super-flashy way, but for him to actually put aside his own ego, he absolutely needs a personal reason.

[intrigueing]

Like, why bring it up if you're going to later establish that all those innocents weren't enough to get them to stop fighting amongst themselves?

They weren't good enough because they had nothing to do with the Avengers. Coulson, on the other hand, believed in the Avengers as a team. The innocent people were just innocent people who Loki had proven himself a monster by killing. They were good enough to make the Avengers try to track down Loki of course, but seriously, if they were level-headed enough to say "we shouldn't fight because innocent people died!" the moment they started fighting, they wouldn't've been even fighting in the first place. I'm sure that if the Helicarrier wasn't attacked, they would've yelled for a while and then decided that maybe they should all shut up and work together, but that's not what happened -- Loki was waiting for the Avengers to fall to fighting among themselves just long enough to ambush them.

Which leads me to my next point: the innocents weren't enough to make them stop fighting because after their death, Loki was locked up and there wasn't that strong a reason to not fight. No one was dying, all danger was theoretical. After Coulson's death, the Helicarrier was damaged, Bruce had Hulked out and both he and Thor were god-knows-where, and Loki had escaped. Huge, HUGE difference in scenarios.

[truxillogical]

It only bothered me because it's like, "Wait. Well, then....why didn't you name it...something other than the Avengers, perhaps? The 'Heroic' initiative. Or the 'Awesome' initiative. I dunno, I'm just spitballin' here, but perhaps a name that doesn't imply that, by its very nature, for it to work, somebody's got to die?"

[(Anonymous)]

I know right? I'm not superstitious, but I don't think I'd have the balls to name my superhero team The Guys Who Will Try To Save the Day But We Might Be Fucked And Just Be Really Mad Later.

[intrigueing]

My headcanon is that Fury's secretly a fan of the British spy series "The Avengers" and gave the project that codename because of them. :)

[truxillogical]

Headcanon gleefully accepted as absolutely the only thing that makes sense.

[(Anonymous)]

:O YES!

[(Anonymous)]

FUCK NO. That's the worst basis ever--The Avengers (British movie) was total shit. The series might have been okay, but I'd still hope Fury could be a little more original than that.

[(Anonymous)]

I hated that line so much. It was so on the nose. I think we would get it without him using his dying words to explain it.

[(Anonymous)]

Me too. That line was pure cheese. I don't understand why there needs to be these thousand word theses defending it.