[ SECRET POST #2273 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2273 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 117 secrets from Secret Submission Post #325.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ], [ 1 2 3 - trolls ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

Would you please stop having such terrible responses and arguments for abortion.

Look, you're clearly in the right, so why don't you brush up on at least the basics, rather then trying some bullshit dumb responses, and tbh hysterical criticisms.

I do intellectually get why you fear what republicans are doing - though not quite emotionally because the laws in my country are politically untouchable, but that's why you need to do this the right way.

Finally, yes, your opponents, half of them women like us, really do believe the fetus is a life, they're not doing this out of some machiavellian plot to control women, so drop that tact because it makes you look like a tinfoil wearing paranoid loony.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[tabaqui]

What terrible responses, exactly, are you hating on?

Re: Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

- "they say they're pro-life but support the death penalty/dont give to charity/help kids after their born??"
- "how can you believe a fetus is a life but make exceptiosn for rape or incest?!?"
- "we dont make people donate their organs, havent u heard of the pianist argument which is brilliant and incisive and not at all challenged by philosophers?"
- "theyre just slut shaming, noone actually believes the bible"
- "if just women voted abortion would be fully legal, men have no right to vote on policies that dont affect them!"

Re: Fellow Libruls

[dreemyweird]

Umm I'm not sure I understand what's going on in the third one. Are Liberals blamed for making people donate their organs? The pianist argument? Googling gives nothing.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[tabaqui]

Hrmmmm.... Being pro-life *should* mean you're pro-life in all aspects. I, personally, don't actually care about that argument one way or the other, but it is hypocritical to be pro-war and pro-death penalty but pearl-clutch over cells.

Never heard the second one.
The pianist? I have no idea what that is. But, yes - bodily autonomy, it's an actual thing.

Never heard the fourth one.
Never heard the first part of the fifth one, but i do very strongly believe the last part. Men - especially old, white, Xian men - need to get the fuck out of my uterus.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[ill_omened]

Do you mean the violinist argument?

Because yes, it's shit and people really need to stop using it like it has any validity. You'd think they'd at least wikiepdia it to see the central criticisms.

Do not call me a liberal.

[chardmonster]

Those people suck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

Re: Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

This seems like an odd place for this particular vent. And an oddly non-specific random vent too.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[anonymouslyyours]

I believe these people think a fetus is a life. I just don't care. There's a reason organ donation registry isn't mandatory. That reason is because people have a right to bodily autonomy. Even if that right comes at the expense of another person's life.

FFS we even let people decide whether or not organs can be harvested from their corpse.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

You say that as if it's right or defensible.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you, this.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[feathercircle]

Someone actually did try to push a bill through the Illinois Senate a while back that would have made organ donation opt-out rather than opt-in, but I think it died in committee.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[dreemyweird]

Sometimes it utterly dumbfounds me how people think that there's anything reasonable about these arguments. Ethics is so irrational it hurts. Why is it that one shouldn't kill a human being? Because. Why shouldn't one cheat on one's better half? Because. Why should one favour good over evil? Because reasons.

There's nothing logical in being pro-life or pro-choice. It is a matter of feeling, of preference.

Of course one can bring some societal reasons, such as "when abortion is prohibited, people start to turn to illegal abortion", but it is only right as long as you accept that women dying after illegal abortions is worse than legal abortions being performed. I do; besides, I hate the thought of a child being unwanted/having an unwanted child; therefore I'm happy that the laws of my country are in agreement with this view; but I hate pro-life vs. pro-choice discussions, because they're all based upon the concepts of good and evil, which are as subjective as one could wish.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-realism/

Re: Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

Your idea of moral relativism is wince-worthy and completely untrue (it's very, very, very contested and has been so for thousands of years), but IA wholeheartedly with your last paragraph, because that's about laws, not morality.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[biohazardgirl]

My stance on abortion is very uncomplicated really, and it's the same stance I take on sex ed (a thing that many conservatives don't advocate and then, lo and behold, people get unwanted pregnancies-which leads to abortion).

People are going to do it whether you want them to or not. People have been having sex for thousands of years-keeping them ignorant about it isn't going to make the sex stop. Likewise, people have had unwanted pregnancies and abortions for thousands of years- making it illegal won't stop the procedure from being done, it will just drive it underground. And birth control too-Ancient people used lots of forms of it underground and aboveground, a lot of ways that didn't work and some (like that plant from ancient rome that was such a good birth control that they used it to EXTINCTION) are a little more effective, but people will still attempt to use it even if you don't want them to, even if it's not proven to be effective.

I would rather live in a world where we are educated and relatively safe than in one where we pretend like stuff doesn't happen in the hopes that it will just go away. I understand not everyone feels that way, but I sure wish they did.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

You take the same approach to murder/rape/theft/other crime?

Because otherwise your argument is merely a practical not moral one, and gets dismantled the minute someone finds a practical way to reduce the abortion rate to some extent.

After all these people literally believe you're killing people.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

As someone completely pro-choice, I agree 100% with you for the last part. Even though it's possible, even likely, that abortion would not be an issue if most members of the group in power had a uterus, it's not likely that it came from a conspiracy to pretend and convince everyone that a fetus was a life, just to control women. The simpler reason is that if you think abortion is never going to be a personal decision for you, the fact that there are many valid reasons someone else would want to take another life probably aren't going to occur to you to begin with. Because it is a life. And if you really believe that taking it is murder, that's a heavy issue that's hard to simply change your mind about and let go.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[saku]

i agree.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[ariakas]

hysterical

Yep, nothing worthwhile to see or read here.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[saku]

both the left and right on this issue suffer from a general lack of understanding. in the end, i think most people, regardless of position, can come to a lot of agreements even if they don't realise it.

i think the biggest problem in the abortion debate is that both of the main sides are arguing in favour of someone/something that the other is not. neither is the anti-position of the other. pro-life individuals are concentrating on the foetus, whereas pro-choice people focus on those carrying the foetus (or that have the potential to do so).

but so many people just assume that those who disagree with which one you choose to focus on are automatically anti-your opinion. i can't even begin to count the amount of times i've heard people from the pro-life side claim that everyone else "hates babies" and people from the pro-choice side claiming their opponents "hate women". neither is inherently true at all, and often isn't?? pro-life people can love women. pro-choice folks can love children/babies/whatever. no matter which stance they opt to take, you can't really deduce anything else about their character from that.

and yet people try all the time. "no, pro-life people really do hate women." "pro-choicers clearly hate children." nobody stops to think about the position the other side is taking. they just assume it's the opposite stance they're taking.

it's really not that difficult to make pro-life people think about the issue a little more clearly, and it puzzles me that pro-choicer individuals take such knee-jerk methods to attempt it. nobody is going to listen to you if you accuse them of hating women, or adhering to the patriarchy, or want nothing more than to take women back 50 years, or whatever. and if you don't want people to listen to you, then what's the point anyway?

Re: Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

Fine. Pro-life people don't respect women. Is that better?

Re: Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

i think the biggest problem in the abortion debate is that both of the main sides are arguing in favour of someone/something that the other is not. neither is the anti-position of the other. pro-life individuals are concentrating on the foetus, whereas pro-choice people focus on those carrying the foetus (or that have the potential to do so).

This is absolutely true. And it's exacerbated by the fact that the abortion debate is completely embroiled with all these other debates that actually have nothing to do with the central question re abortion (the central question surrounding abortion itself, in my mind, has to be: "What is the status of a fetus, what consideration is due to it, and what rights does it have?"). It's complicated because the abortion debate has become a constitutional question of central importance that determines a huge amount of American politics. It's become entangled with questions of religion and politics. And it's become entangled with a huge amount of culture-war stuff, a lot of cultural bullshit and cultural resentments and cultural identification marks, that, again, have nothing to do with someone's position on abortion as such but which have become as important to it.

and I think that's why people tend to view the issue in a reductive way - because, to a large extent, the abortion debate isn't about abortion anymore. At least not in terms of its emotional impact, of what makes people care about it. It's about those smug elitist big-city bastards who want to destroy our way of life and think we're idiots and don't respect us and how evil they are, or it's about those smug, repressive, idiotic small-town bastards who want to destroy our way of life and want us all to live the same way we did 100 years ago and how evil they are. So much of what goes on in the abortion debate is abstracted from abortion itself. And I think that's not a good thing (and I've said before on here that I think abortion is by far the issue that is most divisive and the most problematic in American politics).

Re: Fellow Libruls

[(Anonymous)]

"Clearly in the right". Haha, I wish it was so clear to the people who keep trying to restrict and outlaw abortion.

Re: Fellow Libruls

[insanenoodlyguy]

No, it's equally clear to them that they are in the right.

I don't think aside from a few sociopaths out there that anybody with any hot-button cause has ever believed their side on the wrong of it... unless they were about to switch sides.