[ SECRET POST #2419 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2419 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Way early because taking dog to the vet. :c

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 075 secrets from Secret Submission Post #346.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[darkmanifest]

Yeah, the sexism is subtle, but - to my eyes, at least - it's always there. I just finished The Ocean At The End of the Lane, so this secret is timely, and while I enjoyed it, it had the same underlying currents. That said, his work just seems to have the typical passive sexism most people have, nothing special or remarkable. It pops up on the sidelines of the always-male (except for Coraline) perspective character so breezily that you can mostly ignore it. Like what happened to Shadow's wife in American Gods, or that fucked-up mess with Spider and Rosie in Anansi Boys, or Gaiman's fixation with featuring a trio of incredibly powerful women who never have anything better to do with their (eons of) time but nurture the (often useless and incredibly troublesome) hero. Small but constant things.

Like I said, this isn't unusual. These are just the kind of narratives most of us grew up with and automatically regurgitate and Gaiman does it, too, seems silly to be mad at him for it. Though I guess maybe it's irritating when people forever sing an author's praises and they're so predictable with their themes (except for maybe Sandman).

[(Anonymous)]

I can pretty much agree with this (and thanks for actually, you know, making a point, btw).

I don't think Sandman, ultimately, is all that different, either. At the end of the day, it's still a kind of 'tortured sensitive dude' narrative with the typical concerns of that kind of narrative. Although it's really well done.

[(Anonymous)]

Other than Coraline, the protagonist of MirrorMask was also female, and Gaiman wrote the script for that.

[(Anonymous)]

It's been years since I read American Gods, what was it that happened to Laura again? I mostly remember her as a version of Eurydice who (in the end) got to say she did not want to return to life, rather than just have Shadow's mistake rob her of the chance.

[darkmanifest]

She died giving a blowjob to Shadow's best friend only to be accidentally resurrected by him as a rotting zombie who wandered around aimlessly, suffering in her unlife, until she redeemed herself by rescuing Shadow at the end. I get the intended metaphor, nd I get that she cheated, but that whole plotline read like someone extremely bitter at their female ex.

[(Anonymous)]

someone extremely bitter at their female ex

their female ex

female

I was with you right up until the end then. It's so very depressing to see someone try so hard to uphold feminist ideals and then fall apart under the weight of their own internalized bullshit.

[(Anonymous)]

Not sure what you mean, anon. What's the problem with the commenter's phrasing? Maybe I, too, am falling victim to my own internalised bullshit, but I'm genuinely confused.

[(Anonymous)]

I am female! OH GOD! I must have internalized misogyny!

My father is a male! OH LOOK THERE I GO AGAIN! Ahhh what's happening to meeeee!

I read an article the other day about male gaze and the objectification of the female body! OH THOSE POOR WOMEN TRYING SO HARD TO LIVE UP TO FEMINISM! THEY MUST REALLY BE STRUGGLING UNDER THE WEIGHT OF THEIR SELF-HATRED! How are they even still alive? Surely it must have crushed them by now!

[darkmanifest]

Uh, not sure what you're mad about? But I'd like to hear it. I specified "female" because I've read very few stories where male characters are as ruthlessly punished for (often luridly described, as with Shadow's wife) sexual trespasses as women are.

[(Anonymous)]

I have know idea why you're bent out of shape, anon, since female is an adjective and woman/lady is not. How would you recommend we describe the situation when it seems like someone is angry at their ex, specifically because of their treatment of women who might stand in for said ex?

Female ex. It's the quickest way.

[greenvelvetcake]

I think that's doing Laura as a character a huge disservice. Both she and the best friend died in that car crash, not just her. She was one of my favorite characters in American Gods and a big component of the story, considering her actions at the end. She had her own arc about her own death and, to me, it never felt like the story was punishing her for straying while Shadow was in prison. That last bit is up for your own interpretation.

[darkmanifest]

You definitely took away something different from Laura's character arc than I did. To me, she felt like an awkward footnote to Shadow's story instead of having much of a story of her own. Even considering she was one of Gaiman's few female characters with her own perspective, she spent that perspective trying to...find menial work where people didn't notice she was dead. I'm still not sure what I was supposed to do with that. But it's entirely likely I missed something critical in my two readings of the book.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm generally agreeing with this comment. I'd call his work "not always explicitly feminist" far more than I'd call it sexist; I think he falls into the "theoretically strong woman who has nothing better to do than nurturing messed-up heroes" trope more often than he perhaps would in an ideal world. But at a minimum, I think every substantial work by him except perhaps "Anansi Boys*" passes the (flawed but useful) Bechdel test.

Ultimately, this is a 52-year-old straight English guy. I'm not sure any men of his generation and background *do* always write from an explicitly feminist perspective. The cultural narratives we all grew up with are too strong to really allow that.

(* Anansi might pass; it's been a while since I read it. I just don't remember any women who had much to do in it except Daisy and Rosie.)

[darkmanifest]

I'm not sure I would call having competent female characters present at all implicitly feminist. There's a lot of work out there that feature a handful of amazing women, who are still part of a deeply sexist narrative. I do think Gaiman is a decent storyteller, with female characters I really like. He's just not feminist, IMO - but he never presented himself as such, to my knowledge, and it would be unfair to expect it of him just because he's not some drooling bigot.

Anansi Boys had Rose and her mother talking to each other about things other than Charlie and Spider sometimes, I think.

[(Anonymous)]

SA

I remembered Rosie and her mum had a relationship, but I wasn't sure if they talked on the page about anything besides Charlie. (Or, for that matter,if her mom gets a name besides Mrs. RosiesLastName.) If I were really ambitious I'd go get the book and check, but...

And I didn't mean to say he was implicitly feminist by saying he wasn't explicitly feminist. He's in the middle ground, with some works that are more feminist than others. I think we basically agree on this point.

[darkmanifest]

Oh, okay, my apologies, we do agree there. And nope, the mom definitely doesn't get a first name, but they talked about trying to escape and other stuff when they were kidnapped by Charlie's boss (I really liked that part, they worked together and rescued themselves with plain common sense...it's moments like that that keep me reading Gaiman's stuff despite the flaws).

Thank youu

[applemagpie]

For actually adding something insightful and intelligent to this whole 'is Neil Gaiman sexist' discussion

Re: Thank youu

[nyxelestia]

I think one problem is if a male writer creates a few good female characters or comments on it (much like Whedon or del Toro), then they get set-up as some kind of feminist amongst bigots in media, when reality is much closer to, they aren't sexists in an industry that is very sexist. Of course, not sexist =/= feminist, so when these men inevitably fall short of feminists' expectations, they get branded as sexists, often by people who were bitter and resentful beforehand about all the brouhaha surrounding what they always thought of as 'not that extraordinary, why are you people so obsessed over this?'.

[thene]

Ultimately, this is a 52-year-old straight English guy. I'm not sure any men of his generation and background *do* always write from an explicitly feminist perspective.

Terry Pratchett.

[(Anonymous)]

John Scalzi and Jim C. Hines as well. [Though they aren't 'English' both are very vocally in the corner of feminism.]

[(Anonymous)]

You think Terry Pratchett writes feminist friendly stories?!

Oh honey, you need to get yourself back to feminism 101 right away.

[miarrow]

ITA.

[(Anonymous)]

a trio of incredibly powerful women who never have anything better to do with their (eons of) time but nurture the (often useless and incredibly troublesome) hero

*nods* And, to focus on this idea a little more, I think it's significant that Gaiman often writes positive depictions of ordinary men but pretty much never (as far as I'm aware; I haven't read all of his stuff) writes positive depictions of ordinary women. It seems that he believes that male characters can propel a narrative just by existing, while female characters can only propel a narrative when they're magical and/or otherworldly and/or dead.

(An exception that proves the rule is Coraline: first because she's a girl rather than a woman, and second because even she is weirder and more unique than most of his everyman characters.)

[darkmanifest]

I hadn't considered this, but now that I think about it, it's true. Daisy in Anansi Boys might be another exception; before she became the main character's accessory, she was proactive and pretty cool. All the other ordinary women I can think of are either irrelevant or hostile for no apparent reason.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not sure how you're defining "ordinary," but I'd consider Foxglove and Hazel from Sandman and the Death spin-off both ordinary and positively depicted. I'd also put Daisy Day and Coraline in that category, and Samantha Black Crow from American Gods. (Though he kills her off, so maybe she doesn't count.)

Also, he's a fantasy author. A *lot* of his characters are either magical or dead. I wish he used more non-magical female central characters, but the list of "ordinary" Gaiman protagonists of any gender is already pretty short. Which is not to say you don't have a point, just that I don't think it's clear-cut.