[ SECRET POST #2873 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2873 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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04.
[Naruto]


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05. [ SPOILERS for Doctor Who ]



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06. [ SPOILERS for Doctor Who ]



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07. [ SPOILERS for Doctor Who ]



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08. [ SPOILERS for Spartacus ]



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09. [ WARNING for suicide ]




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10. [ WARNING for child abuse ]



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11. [ WARNING for child porn ]



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12. [ WARNING for sexual assault ]



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13. [ WARNING for rape ]

[Doctor Who]



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14. [ WARNING for rape ]



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15. [ WARNING for rape ]

[Days of Our Lives]


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16. [ WARNING for rape ]



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17. [ WARNING for rape ]



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18. [ WARNING for incest ]



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19. [ WARNING for suicide ]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #410.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

14. [ WARNING for rape ]
http://i.imgur.com/gmxOG2l.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

Is it just me, or is uncritical positivity kind of just as stupid as uncritical negativity

[(Anonymous)]

According to some people women and young children can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality. So we better protect those poor women from themselves.

[feotakahari]

Because fantasies stop being healthy when they stop being fantasies. Sure, you can talk all about how you personally recognize it's a fantasy and have a healthy attitude to it, but when it's so overwhelming and so omnipresent, is it any surprise it seeps into real life?

[brooms]

here for the APA style citation.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, but sleazebags still use it as an excuse to rape women because "look at how common rape fantasies are among women - it's what they actually want!" or to explain away lack of/dubious consent.

[(Anonymous)]

Does anyone know how common is rape fantasy (as in getting raped, not committing rape) among dudes? I've never heard one way or the other on it and it feels unfair to make assumptions about how rape fantasies are the product of women feeling ashamed of their sexuality when we don't have a point of comparison.

[(Anonymous)]

Tropey literature is fine, as are fantasies, but no matter how much some studies want to push either the idea that every woman wants to be ~cared for and protected~ when it comes to sex, or that every woman likes the idea of being waned so much that a male ~just can't hold back~, I can assure you not every woman looks for more than some fun with no strings attached when hooking up with someone, much less that being raped for real is in any way fun.

[ariakas]

Sure, there are all kinds of fantasies in porn that don't pan out/the fantasizer wouldn't really want them/would be gravely illegal or immoral/never actually work that way in real life. This is one of them. I don't knock what people like in porn or erotica.

But the second it shows up in an ostensibly serious or realistic story, yes, I will mock and criticize it, the same way I would any other brainless, pandering fantasy in that kind of work (like MPDGs, or schlubby middle-aged man with nothing going for him scores smoking hot co-ed because he's just so damned nice, or aging dude murders a thousand evil foreigners with his bare hands to rescue his female).

[(Anonymous)]

I think some people have a problem not with it on its own, but with the prevalence of it. Maybe I was just a sheltered youth, but before I was seventeen or so I never really saw a lot of popular, mainstream lit with a "rape is love"/ravishment theme. The only time I really saw stuff like that was in bodice rippers and such. Everyone knows that a bodice ripper is a masturbatory aid, but some people came out of books like Twilight thinking that Edward and Bella have a perfect true love, even though their relationship could have been lifted directly out of a tacky romance novel from the 80s and SMeyer almost certainly wrote the series one-handed. The problem isn't with the fantasy, it's with the fantasy seeping into everything else.

[grausam]

I don't doubt that people who can cite several articles on the reasons of rape/ravishing fantasies will have problems differentiating reality and fantasy, but I do worry for other people.

we can agree that lacking representation can cause shitty behaviour, prevents self-realization and self-confidence in some cases, right? like, heteronormativity, stereotypes, racism, sexism fucks up everyone etc. So why wouldn't internalized rape culture screw with our relationship to consent?

Especially younger fans can profit from a critical perspective+pretty kink shameless attitude (like I did).

[(Anonymous)]

Those citations are cute and all, but all they do is describe the logic of rape fantasies. Explaining things doesn't JUSTIFY things.

[(Anonymous)]

The first text in red is exactly why I had rape fantasies growing up. In my fantasies, I was desired to an overwhelming degree by the man I desired, and having him push the issue took the responsibility from me. It was textbook.

But man, say that to people with a knee-jerk reaction to anything regarding rape and fantasies in the same talk.

[(Anonymous)]

The problem here is with the "nothing but." Social attitudes influence media. And, as you may have noticed, a lot of social attitudes are pretty negative.

Also, as noted in the comments here, slightly more men than women fantasize about being raped. So, if the Rape is Love trope is nothing but the literary application of a fantasy, then why isn't there as much, if not more, fiction where the roles in the trope are reversed? Doesn't that tell you that something a bit more is going on?

[diet_poison]

I'm not going to pretend that that trope doesn't creep me out. It does.

But what actually upsets me is when people say things implying that that particular set of desires is universal to all women. Just. NO.

[(Anonymous)]

My issue isn't people who have rape fantasies. My issue is rape apologists who bend over backwards to excuse rape in fiction or deny that it was actually rape, or even imply that they would not believe it was rape in real life. That's the problem here, and that's nothing to do with sex-positivity.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm perfectly fine with the "rape is love" trope as you describe it. The problem is when people do "rape is love" and then insist whatever relationship that follows is totally healthy. No matter which way you slice it, any relationship that involves "they just couldn't stop themselves" as a justification is twisted.

[(Anonymous)]

All the people should read this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

"Meana has learned too from her attempts as a clinician to help patients with dyspareunia. Though she explained that the condition, which can make intercourse excruciating, is not in itself a disorder of low desire, she said that her patients reported reduced genital pain as their desire increased. The problem was how to augment desire, and despite prevailing wisdom, the answer, she told me, had “little to do with building better relationships,” with fostering communication between patients and their partners. She rolled her eyes at such niceties. She recalled a patient whose lover was thoroughly empathetic and asked frequently during lovemaking, “ ‘Is this O.K.?’ Which was very unarousing to her. It was loving, but there was no oomph” — no urgency emanating from the man, no sign that his craving of the patient was beyond control.

“Female desire,” Meana said, speaking broadly and not only about her dyspareunic patients, “is not governed by the relational factors that, we like to think, rule women’s sexuality as opposed to men’s.” She finished a small qualitative study last year consisting of long interviews with 20 women in marriages that were sexually troubled. Although bad relationships often kill desire, she argued, good ones don’t guarantee it. She quoted from one participant’s representative response: “We kiss. We hug. I tell him, ‘I don’t know what it is.’ We have a great relationship. It’s just that one area” — the area of her bed, the place desolated by her loss of lust.

The generally accepted therapeutic notion that, for women, incubating intimacy leads to better sex is, Meana told me, often misguided. “Really,” she said, “women’s desire is not relational, it’s narcissistic” — it is dominated by the yearnings of “self-love,” by the wish to be the object of erotic admiration and sexual need. Still on the subject of narcissism, she talked about research indicating that, in comparison with men, women’s erotic fantasies center less on giving pleasure and more on getting it. “When it comes to desire,” she added, “women may be far less relational than men.”

Like Chivers, Meana thinks of female sexuality as divided into two systems. But Meana conceives of those systems in a different way than her colleague. On the one hand, as Meana constructs things, there is the drive of sheer lust, and on the other the impetus of value. For evolutionary and cultural reasons, she said, women might set a high value on the closeness and longevity of relationships: “But it’s wrong to think that because relationships are what women choose they’re the primary source of women’s desire.”

Meana spoke about two elements that contribute to her thinking: first, a great deal of data showing that, as measured by the frequency of fantasy, masturbation and sexual activity, women have a lower sex drive than men, and second, research suggesting that within long-term relationships, women are more likely than men to lose interest in sex. Meana posits that it takes a greater jolt, a more significant stimulus, to switch on a woman’s libido than a man’s. “If I don’t love cake as much as you,” she told me, “my cake better be kick-butt to get me excited to eat it.” And within a committed relationship, the crucial stimulus of being desired decreases considerably, not only because the woman’s partner loses a degree of interest but also, more important, because the woman feels that her partner is trapped, that a choice — the choosing of her — is no longer being carried out.

A symbolic scene ran through Meana’s talk of female lust: a woman pinned against an alley wall, being ravished. Here, in Meana’s vision, was an emblem of female heat. The ravisher is so overcome by a craving focused on this particular woman that he cannot contain himself; he transgresses societal codes in order to seize her, and she, feeling herself to be the unique object of his desire, is electrified by her own reactive charge and surrenders. Meana apologized for the regressive, anti-feminist sound of the scene.

Yet while Meana minimized the role of relationships in stoking desire, she didn’t dispense with the sexual relevance, for women, of being cared for and protected. “What women want is a real dilemma,” she said. Earlier, she showed me, as a joke, a photograph of two control panels, one representing the workings of male desire, the second, female, the first with only a simple on-off switch, the second with countless knobs. “Women want to be thrown up against a wall but not truly endangered. Women want a caveman and caring. If I had to pick an actor who embodies all the qualities, all the contradictions, it would be Denzel Washington. He communicates that kind of power and that he is a good man.”

After our discussion of the alley encounter, we talked about erotic — as opposed to aversive ­— fantasies of rape. According to an analysis of relevant studies published last year in The Journal of Sex Research, an analysis that defines rape as involving “the use of physical force, threat of force, or incapacitation through, for example, sleep or intoxication, to coerce a woman into sexual activity against her will,” between one-third and more than one-half of women have entertained such fantasies, often during intercourse, with at least 1 in 10 women fantasizing about sexual assault at least once per month in a pleasurable way.

The appeal is, above all, paradoxical, Meana pointed out: rape means having no control, while fantasy is a domain manipulated by the self. She stressed the vast difference between the pleasures of the imagined and the terrors of the real. “I hate the term ‘rape fantasies,’ ” she went on. “They’re really fantasies of submission.” She spoke about the thrill of being wanted so much that the aggressor is willing to overpower, to take. “But ‘aggression,’ ‘dominance,’ I have to find better words. ‘Submission’ isn’t even a good word” — it didn’t reflect the woman’s imagining of an ultimately willing surrender."

That's about the study cited in the secret.

I don't have a negative attitude toward sex, but I want a man to want me, I don't want to come forward myself. That's why I enjoy that trope.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm curious about those here wanting characters in fiction to acknowledge they were raped, or that rape happened. If the fantasy is based the desire of being desired, wouldn't it be logical for the said victims to just shrug it off since there's no question their rapist's desire for them is just that and not motivated by any evil thoughts?

My impression is that those here who don't like the trope want even people in fiction to act as shocked as they would, when you forget people in fiction are the product of another mind who's not shocked in the least because it's getting what it wants, since everything is the mind's own creation. And it's happy with that.

For example some people refuse to accept Abel in Starfighter wasn't raped even though Hamletmachine actually said in the comments he was willing and that she makes the comic to please herself first. I always shake my head when people rant that "she cannot know her character's real thoughts" yeah right, she totally cannot know someone she herself created. Palm meet face.

[(Anonymous)]

People should really stop associating rape fantasies with "fantasies of being harmed and degraded, humiliated, etc." That's not what EROTIC rape fantasies are about. Erotic rape fantasies are about wanting to be the object of sexual need and desire, the treatment the person who's fantasizing is getting here is pleasurable and yearned for, that's why it's always excused.

[(Anonymous)]

That's interesting. I still avoid the bejeebus out of the trope because it makes me violently angry, but it's interesting.

[(Anonymous)]

Straight women are really mad about that other thread.

[(Anonymous)]

tbh, I don't give a fuck what people want to read and write as long as they label their stuff properly. You wanna write eroticised rape? Go right ahead! Just stick a "non-con" or "rape fantasy" label on it so that people who don't want to read that can avoid it and everybody can live together in peace and harmony.

[(Anonymous)]

Love the kink - shaming all up in here. Why don't all you cunts do a favor and find a real man to violently rape you. Perferrably with a metal object so you don't infect the gene pool with your man - hating feminist agendas, okay?

[(Anonymous)]

Well then, this mean i am a part of "some people" of those ear-plucked people because all i see in that "Rape is love" is just "Rape is S&M" or "Rape is Shame". And defend rape fantasy for women, well, i won't go there either.

I don't know. Which one creepiest, rape or shame? If neither of those words exist, i be the most happiest person to live.