[ SECRET POST #2119 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2119 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


__________________________________________________



02.


__________________________________________________



03.


__________________________________________________



04.


__________________________________________________



05.


__________________________________________________



06.


__________________________________________________



07.


__________________________________________________



08.


__________________________________________________



09.


__________________________________________________



10.


__________________________________________________



11.


__________________________________________________



12.


__________________________________________________



13.


__________________________________________________



14.


__________________________________________________



15.


__________________________________________________



16.


__________________________________________________













Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 85 secrets from Secret Submission Post #303.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

02. http://i.imgur.com/fFuj9.jpg

[ellie_oops]

I think The Doctor and River would have worked if Moffat didn't destroy her.

[mekkio]

But Moffat created her. Who else would have written her?

[nomorenoodles.livejournal.com]

River was soooo cool in series 4, and I love that portrayal of River. I hate who she's become (or was like? Well in meta terms it's become) because she's such a Moffat archetype now.

[(Anonymous)]

Pretty sure that was Moffat's gameplan from the beginning tbqh.

[(Anonymous)]

I didn't think the doctor was canonically in love with River? He only married her to save the universe in a typical Moffat handwavey manner, right? Have I been watching it wrong?

But I agree with the part of your secret where it would be extremely weird/creepy if they were actually married (for serious). River was such a cool character before her character got assassinated. *sigh*

OP

[(Anonymous)]

That's what I thought too except with the most recent episode (Angels Take Manhattan), Moffat kept bringing up their marriage and how they were married and how marriage is apparently the answer to everything. Even if it was meant to be tongue in cheek, I felt like it was treated as if it was in the same category as Amy/Rory's marriage.

[(Anonymous)]

I think he loves River and he is definitely attracted to her, but whether or not he loves her more then any other companion is debatable to me.

But the marriage was very "if you stop destroying the universe, I'll marry you" which to me is horrible. It's like "Oh silly woman, I'll marry you and it'll solve all your problems!"

[fenm]

I agree. When they're just having adventures, they're okay hanging out and working together. But when it comes to their "relationship", I do NOT get the feeling the Doctor considers her any more than an annoyance or an obligation. For that matter, she seems annoyed by him a lot of the time, too. Or just obsessed. I don't get the impression that either of them loves the other in any real, meaningful sense.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't really like Doctor/Master but I agree with your Doctor/River points. And what bothers me more then anything is that it isn't really acknowledged how fucked up it is.

But then Moffat probably doesn't see it as a problem that River's entire identity is dependent on the Doctor. Moffat has pretty messed up views on women.

[shukivengeance]

I loved their story initially, I found the idea of a lovestory where both people are going in opposite directions and go through the relationship aware of the other's demise to be beautiful and tragic. Rivers character was just wrecked though when she was shown to be insane and obsessive. It destroyed everything that made me like her.

[(Anonymous)]

......Eeeeeeexcept, it's already been done, in Benjamin Button. Or, y'know, a more direct parallel, The Time Traveler's Wife. Books, not the movies, obvs. Tho I doubt Moffat read either one, it looked like he just cribbed from both movies, filed the serial numbers off then called it a day.

Not sure Nu!Who made the transition to "adult" fare very well IMO.

[(Anonymous)]

I can't comment on the D/M part because that ship never worked for me but my Doctor/River feelings are very mixed. I've always shipped them (and probably always will) but I don't ship them as much as I did pre-Let's Kill Hitler. I loved the revelation of River being Melody Pond and I love that she's part time-lord, but I loathe that she was raised to 'kill' the Doctor. I loathe that she was made into a weapon and became a psychopath and that her obsessive hate for the Doctor turned into love in like 2.5 seconds. But I still ship them? Only now it's because they're so fucked up. And because it's still Alex and Matt and I love their dynamic.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes this. I still do ship Doctor/River, but it's not as easy post-LKH. And as much as I ship them, I hated their wedding. :( But I still think Matt's and Alex's chemistry is amazing and I guess I'm mostly still shipping what I wanted the Doctor/River relationship to be.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with you about their chemistry. I also think they act really well together. She's always great, and he is better when with her.

I didn't like the LKH twist on it all either, but I sort of ignore it because she seems to adore him so much once she's River. I think he does act differently with her, like she's above the others in his eyes, or more of an equal maybe, something like that.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that River really should have been a character who got brought in once every season or so, for an episode or maybe a two-parter at most, and we'd slowly learn more about her character and her relationship. She worked as a cool mysterious adventurer who flirted with the Doctor and put him on the wrong foot for once. I liked that.
Instead, last season was The River Song Show. And she got over her intense brainwashing because of the Power of Love. And then I gave up on catching up on Doctor Who over Christmas break, because no. Just no. Too much River, too much epic-romance-with-the-Doctor, and too much stupid.

Personally, I love Doctor/Master, but I try not to bring that up when I'm discussing Doctor/River because it makes me sound like a rabid slash fangirl. I'm capable of shipping him with women, they just have to be equals of a sort. Like, I totally bought him and Madame du Pompadour for some reason, even though they didn't know each other very long and at first he was the guy who saved her from the monsters under her bed. But they played that in a way that didn't feel creepy, it felt natural and romantic and wonderful.
I think that River in her introductory episode was a perfectly viable love interest for the Doctor, and then once we learned more about her and being obsessed and trained to kill the Doctor from toddler-age, she ... wasn't a viable love interest anymore. It's creepy. It's stupid. It doesn't make any sense.

[nyxelestia]

Probably solo in my opinion, but I never really saw it "grand true love" or even a "real marriage". The references to their marriage always seemed like more of an in-joke than anything else, and they seem to treat their relationship as a friendship - a messed up friendship, but a friendship all the same.

It's certainly not perfect (it's Moffat, what can I expect?), but I never got the impression Doctor/River was ever really canon, either.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, someone's pressed. Go write some fanfic and get the fuck over it.

[(Anonymous)]

...Er. Except she didn't fall in love with him until after she regenerated into River Song from Mel. She was obsessed with KILLING him prior to that.

[tenlittlebullets]

Devil's advocate: the Master has defined his entire identity around the Doctor for nine hundred fucking years. I don't think we've ever even seen him show up in an episode for any reason except to pull the Doctor's pigtails, except maybe that one time in Colony in Space where I think they ran into each other by accident. And in all that time, how many times has he succeeded in beating the Doctor? ZERO. Zero point five if you count Last of the Time Lords as both of them sorta winning and sorta losing. He's way more likely to try to impress the Doctor with some rubbish plan involving summoning something he can't control, then need the Doctor to bail him out. If he were a female character, fandom would be howling.

River starts out at about the Master's level of obsession and defining herself around the Doctor, then mellows out and starts having her own adventures as she gets older.

Don't get me wrong, I ship both pairings like burning, but Doctor/River comes off like Moffat was trying to write canon Doctor/Master and then realized that for it to work, his Master expy needed to grow up and be a bit less pathetic.

[rbhudson]

Agreed

[maverickz3r0]

You are making me very glad I can't stand Moffat running the show and Matt Smith as the Doctor.

I don't know, at this point it seems to be getting a little convoluted even for Doctor Who canon. Secret time lord who was born to two of the Doctor's companions and raised to kill him and then regenerates into his wife? Really? This is when I roll my eyes at Moffat.

If she was just an on and off companion or something, woulda been much better. Although I wasn't hugely fond of her the first time she showed up either. Fantastic, leave it as a mystery, maybe bring her back for one show later to explain a bit but open-ended please and thank you.

[velvet_mace]

I don't know. I vote for them both being problematic. But at least River/Doctor is based on mutual respect and liking for each other, they are both mentally healthy, and they bond over shared meals and adventures. Sure their timelines are fucked up in respect to each other, which makes it rather hard to have much of a relationship together, but what they had, they both seemed to mutually enjoy.

Sometimes I think fandom forgets that the Master is a psychopath, who opposes pretty much everything that the Doctor values, hurts him and those he's closest to, and basically the only thing they share is their planet of origin. The only relationship there is mutual obsession and the Doctor's rather contrary penchant for giving the people who hate him an infinite number of second chances. (Whereas if you actually like the Doctor, one strike and you are out!)

[awkward_as_heck]

I think River was much better when she was an ordinary woman who had an extra ordinary life. Somehow now that she is shown to be part-time lord and the daughter of the Doctor's companions she seems less special somehow.

[mentalguru]

Nah OP. I'm afraid Master/Doctor IS still much unhealthier at the end of the day. The Masters obsession with killing him would be much longer if it was made canon. His overall investment and unhealthy obsession would run so much deeper. It's more messed up IMO in any case.

That's not to say River/Doctor doesn't suck big monkey balls of course. Nor that it isn't problematic in its own right and requires better framing at the very least . I mean shooting someone in the foot is worse than punching them REALLY HARD in the face and breaking their nose but they're both still BAD.