[ SECRET POST #2185 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2185 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 034 secrets from Secret Submission Post #312.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Not to mention the other implications of that scene. It wasn't just a case of the Time Lord's clicking their fingers and having him regenerate with the magic glowy stuff like in the new series. The Doctor is probably screaming because they have to kill him for his body to renew itself! That's pretty dark...Okay, it's not outright stated but it's what my sadistic headcanon wants it to be. :P

But more than that, what is stated is that they don't just force him to regenerate, they take away his knowledge of the TARDIS and of time travel. Imagine forgetting how to drive or swim and not being able to even learn how to do it again. That would make anyone angry.

None of this is helping Ten's "I just don't wanna change my pretty face" tantrum case.

ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks for jogging my failing memory, I knew there was something I was forgetting. Do you think it was the Time Lords blanking the companions' (Jamie and Zoe? I'm misremembering that too prolly, I just know it) minds that had Two so upset? After all, Three got his groove back pretty quickly, all things considered.

Which also doesn't help Ten's emo-tasticity problem. Unfortunately, Eleven is not exempt. As soon as Matt Smith made that overexaggerated emo face after saying "Those were the days." yesterday, I hit the Back button LIKE IT WAS ON FIRE.

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

I think it was just a combination of losing his companions in such a heartbreaking way - especially Jamie who remains to this day the definitive bromance companion - as well as being judged by his own people, exacuted, cut off from time travel and stuck on a 'primative' planet. Two had every right to be kicking and screaing at being treated like that especially after he'd just spend the last few episodes trying to save a shit load of people stuck in the War Games.

Three was pretty out of it for a while (can't remember the specific amount of time, maybe a couple of days?) and how the Time Lords just dropped him off on Earth to stumble out and keel over - charming!

With Eleven I'm not sure how to feel. I think his depression is a little more relatable than it was with say Ten after he lost Rose because he seemed to imprint on Amy a lot more, from when she was a child. I think she was the closest replacement to Susan he ever found and to then see her die - remember he hasn't witnessed a long-term companion truley dying since Adric (or arguiably Peri).

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

The whole "I imprinted on you like a baby duckling" thing is just so OTT and LOLtastic, I just...it seriously undermines the Doctor for me, because I'm just cackling too hard to pay anything else any attention, I'm sorry. (And I'm sorry they ever brought it up in NuWho.)

Not seeing a lot of comparison between Amy and Susan; neither one of "the Ponds" seemed really well-fleshed out, to me, tbh. They kind of stumbled around like cardboard cutouts of companions compared to, say, Ian and Barbara, who TO THIS DAY have shippers, and definitely didn't defer to the Doctor as any kind of authority figure or leader, or whatever it was they were going for in that relationship, I couldn't figure it out. (And then they added the whole River Song explanation, which upped the levels of ridiculousness by several orders of magnitude.)

Don't think we'll see much of Nine, Ten, OR Eleven, in thirty years' time, IMO. in the fandom. tbqh.

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

I don't mean that Amy and Susan were similar as characters, I just mean I think his relationship with her was probably the most paternal he's been with any of his companions, aided by the fact that he met her when she was seven and had trouble seeing her as anything other than Little Amelia Pond (as seen in Lets Kill Hitler and the God Complex).

And of course no one compares to the legendary Ian and Barbara - whose ship is now canon, bitches! Hell yeah!

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

The whole "I imprinted on you like a baby duckling" thing is just so OTT and LOLtastic, I just...it seriously undermines the Doctor for me, because I'm just cackling too hard to pay anything else any attention, I'm sorry. (And I'm sorry they ever brought it up in NuWho.)

da

I was okay with it. I felt he was basically saying that he really appreciated Amy because she always had him. Basically her whole life has had the Doctor as a presence, so she's someone who grew up with him as a person of trust and love, even if he didn't know it. It was a new experience for him, because here's a person whose wanted him her whole life. I guess it was the same sort of appeal we saw with Reinette.

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

....you're seriously bringing Girl in the Fireplace as your defence of the "imprints like a duck" theory? Dude, you're not helping your case at all, LOL.

Re: ayrt

[intrigueing]

Nah, you're right that Amy was treated really badly by the plot and got really shafted in the character development department from an out-of-universe perspective. But from an in-universe perspective? Er...yes, she was really really important to that particular incarnation of the Doctor and his relationship with her was a lot like how he viewed Susan.

I note that you mention Susan and then suddenly jump to discussing Ian and Barbara. Uhhh...Susan's not Ian or Barbara. Susan was also a rather poorly-developed character, but do you honestly think that because she was poorly developed and not remotely the most awesome companion from our perspective, the Doctor didn't care for her? He probably cared for her more than he ever cared for any other companion ever, for logical, in-universe reasons. That's just what IS, it has nothing to do with her character development.

Also, I'm curious as to why it "undermines the Doctor". Because some random human had a massive impact on him? I mean, the circumstances kinda warrant it: he was regenerating, and he was regenerating alone, and she was the first person he saw in his new form and the first thing he ever did was help her, before his personality was even fully formed. What makes imprinting like that so impossible? It's a really interesting and logical idea. (note I say idea...not character arc...because there was no character arc with the remotest level of consistency in season 6)

If Moffat had actually bothered to follow through on the concept with any kind of actual respect for the idea, I think it could have been a really fascinating and unique concept to explore. He just handled it...really poorly. Rather like RTD handled Rose, saying she was ~so awesome~ and all this shit without really delving into the reasons why she might be important (first companion after the Time War, etc).

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

One wasn't even a really well-developed character, because they had no idea the show would still be around, so many years later, when they were first writing and filming it.

As for why I think it undermines the Doctor, it's a physiological bit that hasn't been seen in any of the earlier regenerations; and if it is what accounts for the OTT emo nature of the characters' relations with each other, then...it doesn;t serve the character very well, IMO, because then it just comes across as a bad caricature (as opposed to a good caricature, like Four, though there are fans who would disagree with me).

Re: ayrt

[intrigueing]

With Eleven I'm not sure how to feel. I think his depression is a little more relatable than it was with say Ten after he lost Rose because he seemed to imprint on Amy a lot more, from when she was a child. I think she was the closest replacement to Susan he ever found and to then see her die

That's exactly how I feel. I've seen episodes of every single Doctor with every single companion, and I'm still boggling at how Eleven's going to live without the Ponds, especially Amy, seeing as pretty much his entire existence and identity is constructed around his relationship with her. (Even in a literal sense, re: The Big Bang.)

HOWEVER, one of the things I liked about Eleven, (even though it probably makes me sound like a douchebag to say it) is that he was the king of Stepford Smilers. Even if he was screaming inside he'd pretend to be happy and nutty and wear dumb hats and make lame jokes and ball it all up and squash it down to let it fester quietly as a mental illness (in the words of Turanga Leela of Futurama). So that way, I didn't have to sit through scenes of him angsting therapeutically about his problems.

Yes, I know, I'm a horrible person.

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

Eleven still angsted all over the place though!

" his entire existence and identity is constructed around his relationship with her"

See, this is the part that drives me absolutely bonkers. It is a complete role reversal of what the Doctor is, it undermines everything the show is about (strange slightly-batty alien has thrilling adventures with a constantly-changing cast of characters across time and space), and it is one of the many soap opera elements they've brought in that does real disservice to the show, for me, at least, because I just can't watch that rubbish.

Re: ayrt

[intrigueing]

And I kinda find that unique and interesting and not at all implausible or inconsistent. Mind you, I wouldn't want it again in the next regeneration -- if they do it once, it's a fascinating concept to explore.

Now, if they keep doing it and treat it as normal and expected, instead of a unique one-off circumstantial idea for this one particular regeneration, (compare it to, say, the uniqueness of Three being stuck on Earth almost his entire run, or Four traveling with another Time Lord instead of with a human or a human-like alien) then that would be idiotic and soap-opera-ish and not really what the Doctor's about. What the Doctor's really about is change - every companion relationship is different. Every regeneration is different. Every set of particular circumstances they face is different. If they try to make it normal and "this is how it should always go and it should never be different" THAT does a disservice to the show.

But if it was this one time, this one incarnation, with this one girl and with this one particularly unique reason and set of circumstances...I don't see how it flies in the face of "everything the show is about". It doesn't make the Doctor non-batty, or non-alien, or not have thrilling adventures across time and space, or unable to change his cast properly if they bother to write a proper exit. It just leaves open some interesting paths to explore regarding his characterization and the nature of his relationship with his companions.

I honestly hope I don't sound presumptuous, but it does seem like you're making it into a way bigger deal than it actually is. It doesn't change who he is. It's simply "I'm not exactly sure what my personality is like without you, because you were right there when it was forming". That's...kind of an interesting concept that makes sense and is a clever way to play with the idea of regeneration. And it could be pretty cool to see him deal with adapting to a new companion given those circumstances. Or it would be, if Moffat knew how to, you know, write.

Re: ayrt

[sensualcoco.livejournal.com]

HOWEVER, one of the things I liked about Eleven, (even though it probably makes me sound like a douchebag to say it) is that he was the king of Stepford Smilers. Even if he was screaming inside he'd pretend to be happy and nutty and wear dumb hats and make lame jokes and ball it all up and squash it down to let it fester quietly as a mental illness (in the words of Turanga Leela of Futurama). So that way, I didn't have to sit through scenes of him angsting therapeutically about his problems.

Yes. That's what made him fantastic for me. Not because I didn't want to sit through scenes of angsting but just because it was so subtle and real. I'm sure we've all had to put on our best face for others at one point or another. And it's just so heartbreaking because you know without it having to be explained to you.

Re: ayrt

[velvet_mace]

Yeah, I'm hoping with this Christmas Special that Eleven is finished his sulk. It seems like the Doctor is at his worst when he's feeling sorry for himself, no matter the regeneration. It gets really tiresome, really fast.

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry to disappoint. Not five minutes in, and Eleven gives this great emo look of horrified sadness...that reads more like a bad case of acid reflux, LOL.

Re: ayrt

[velvet_mace]

Wait, the next season isn't out yet. We've just had the Christmas special! How do you know what he'll be like next?

Or maybe you misunderstood me. This Christmas Special was non-stop, epic, Tennet worthy sulkiness, but there was just the tiniest glimpse of hope at the end of it that maybe he's ready to go beyond feeling sorry for himself and get onto having adventures again.

One thing I'm not digging about the Nu Who is the Doctor's inexplicably fickle, black and white attitude towards his companions. He's both absurdly hung up on them and yet incredibly lackadaisical about their welfare and feelings. He goes from "fuck off" to "be with me pleeeeeeese!" in half a breath. It's annoying as fuck. He's over a thousand years old, he should figure out by now that humans are ephemeral and rather fragile creatures and he should take better care of his toys if he wants to keep them. He kind of takes them for granted up to the point where they die on him, or leave him, or get sucked into another universe, then he suddenly realizes his feelings are hurt.

I remember when his companions got into trouble because they defied him, not because they followed him.

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

LOL, sorry, I didn't realize you meant in the new series, I haven't (and likely won't, unless it runs as a marathon and I've nothing better to do) seen that yet, I was talking about the Christmas Special, which I'm glad I skipped.

the Doctor's inexplicably fickle, black and white attitude towards his companions. He's both absurdly hung up on them and yet incredibly lackadaisical about their welfare and feelings.

Reflective of the poor quality of the writer(s) IMO.

I remember when his companions got into trouble because they defied him, not because they followed him.

SO MUCH THIS. And River doesn't count because, well, that whole thing was just incoherent from the get-go. Poorly planned out and, as a result, very poorly executed. (Literally.)

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

I remember when his companions got into trouble because they defied him, not because they followed him.

Yeah, but you know Moffat would handle that as meaning "see, you should listen to me because I am the Doctor and always right!". I think that's basically the wrong way of handling a more independent companion.

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

da

LOL. But I do think that's kind of unfair. As much as I dislike how emotastic NuWho can be, I think the guy deserves to be a bit emo after losing his best friends in the world, who he himself admitted were "seared onto his hearts" as a result of meeting them when he had just been born and helping them as his first action. I'd be more annoyed if he wasn't being irritatingly mopey and emo.

Of course this wouldn't be a problem if he and his companions had a sweet happy hopeful parting FOR ONCE in the new series.

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

Of course this wouldn't be a problem if he and his companions had a sweet happy hopeful parting FOR ONCE in the new series.

LOL. Everyone forgets Martha. XD

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

Eh, happy she was not. No more than any of the others. 95% of her was "has sempai noticed me yet?".

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

Cf. "baby duckling" thing above, I am that anon. IDK, maybe I'm one of the people OP accuses of having no soul (I don't actually--long story, that), but that whole "seared onto his hearts" and treating regeneration the same as birth? That's going way out of canon territory, IMO (After all, Romana I treated it literally like a change of clothes!), and it does NOT help the bad space opera feel of NuWho at all.

And really, the partings should not be happy OR sad, they just happen. (Which was true for every companion save Adric. And even Five didn't get that emoriffic over it.) Companions came and went. One fell in love and stopped travelling on another planet. Ian and Barbara jumped at the chance to go home when they found the second time machine. Companions came and went. It was never a big deal, which is why NuWho MAKING it such a big deal, makes it seem far more fanfic-like than I think it could be.

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

I'd argue that companions leaving was always a big deal in a sense but it was just exacuted with a lot more subtelty and depth than they are in the new series. There were a lot of companions in the old series where it was just a case of "Meh, tired of this, found something new, bye bye!" - Vicki, Leela, Romana, Mel etc.

But then you had characters that did have actual tear-jerker endings; the big ones being Susan, Jamie & Zoe, Jo Grant, Sarah Jane, Adric, Tegan and I'll admit even Mel's got me a little choked up but that's mostly because of Seven's whole "Think of me" speech.

These weren't overblown with music too loud to hear the dialogue over or bombastic events. It was just close friends having to say goodbye which is heartbreaking enough without having to make it as OMG!TRAGIC as possible.

Re: ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

1. Uh, sorry, no, there is no "should". The reason partings are a big deal now is because the audience of today is not the audience of last generation -- they need emotional continuity from episode to episode, or it feels strange. It's a different way of doing television. Of course, it doesn't have to be bullshit "Doomsday" level soppiness, but companions "coming and going"? You must be entirely deluded if you think a modern audience would respond to that with anything other than confusion and outrage. Also, the Doctor's in a different situation now than before. His species is gone, he's alone, of course he's going to be more clingy than before.

2. You...seriously did not just cite Romana's regeneration gag as serious supporting evidence. Please don't tell me you did that. Use all the Doctor's previous regenerations! The ones that weren't ridiculously OTT like Ten's, but actually acknowledged how big a deal a new personality is.

3. When did it say it was "the same as birth"? He changed his personality. Before his personality was fully established, he met a little girl, helped her with a crack in her wall, and got suckered into a massive shitstorm crisis while helping her. What's exactly so completely wrong about the idea that hey, maybe something like that can influence and help shape an uncompleted personality?

Oh...I see. Because the Old Series never did it? Sorry to burst your bubble, sweetums, but the Old series introduced new concepts all the time, baby doll. All. The. Time. Exploring things more deeply. Adding new layers to ideas. Adding new ideas. Coming up with new possibilities and new reveals. Why should the new series just stop adding new ideas to the show? The old series never stopped. Just because an idea hasn't been in canon yet doesn't mean it's wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

Wait, you honestly thought it was just a "I don't want to change my pretty face" tantrum?

... context is important there, methinks. He's just witnessed the return of the Time Lords, seen all his work undone, and still reeling from helping to /commit genocide on his entire race for the SECOND TIME/. The fact that he's still kind of emotional/broken up about that and therefore seizes on having to regenerate as the final injury to break down about is pretty forgivable, imo.