[ SECRET POST #2352 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2352 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 091 secrets from Secret Submission Post #336.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

14. http://i43.tinypic.com/2q8ahdu.png

[(Anonymous)]

I agree actually.

[blitzwing]

Hey, at least Dean doesn't watch Sam sleep. Wait...

[(Anonymous)]

I feel judged lol.

[(Anonymous)]

a canon centered around an unhealthy relationships =/= a popular fucked up fanon relationship

that being said, there is a double standard when it comes to shitty things you're allowed to enjoy, and when it's "girl" things (like vampire romance novels) suddenly it's lolstupid and ~think of the preteen girls~

[(Anonymous)]

I dunno, man, Sam and Dean are capable of having lives without each other. Nice, kinda happy normal lives, even. Also there may be an instant MPREG bone-breaking-birthing fic out there but I don't look very hard for what I don't want to find.

[wldcatsprstr_14]

Sam and Dean's co-dependent relationship is *constantly* being called out as just that. By good AND evil characters. The show never pretends that the way they can't function without each other is a good thing. I think that's a major difference.

And I don't ship Wincest at all.

[(Anonymous)]

lol

I'm pretty sure the issues comes with the fact that Twihards generally don't recognize the problems with Bella and Edward's relationship, and insist that it's healthy and loving. I don't know anyone who thinks Wincest is healthy and loving. Pretty much all the shippers I know revel in how fucked up it is/they are.

They're fucked up in entirely different ways, though.

[chardmonster]

One's incest, but (as far as I can tell) it would take place between emotional equals.

One is a 100 year old vampire and a teenager, the latter of whom becomes obsessed and changes her life completely over someone she really just met. Edward is creepy (though he's a goddamn vampire, so being inhumanly creepy just goes along with it) and does things like watch her sleep without her knowing. This is presented in canon as positive, and has been picked up by hordes of swooning teenagers and a good portion of their parents as a romantic ideal.

I didn't think I'd ever say it, but yeah, the whole Twilight thing is way creepier than pretending the brothers fuck.

Judge away.

[(Anonymous)]

It's still hot as fuck.

[(Anonymous)]

What if you ship it and think it's fucked up?

I agree that that Wincest, were it canonical, would be more fucked up than Edward/Bella. They may already be more fucked up than Edward/Bella. I wouldn't say I ship it, personally, but I have less of a problem with it than I do with most incest ships because I'm not sure the Winchesters could even get any more codependent and screwed up. However, I find the characters about a million times more interesting than the characters in Twilight.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't ship Wincest, but most of the problems people have with Bella and Edward (age/maturity difference, stalking, obsession, predatory nature) aren't a part of Sam and Dean's dynamic, at least in canon. They're also not quite as codependent, despite having more of a basis to rely on each other.

Also, Wincest is a fanon shipn, it's a bit different than a canon romance that is the plot of a novel aimed at young girls.

[(Anonymous)]

But someone could still ship it even while knowing it's fucked up.

[(Anonymous)]

as said above, they are different types of fucked up.

twilight essentially has stalker issues and codependent in a somewhat forced way. wincest, depending on when you decided they got together, knows that they're fucked up, unlike twilight. wincest is also emotionally on the same page.

also, frankly one's badly written book, so i'm not sure if bella and edward's relationship is what it is (unreliable narrator) while the other one is an okay written (now somewhat poorly) tv show, the medium is totally different, which means comparison that much harder, esp. when they are told in different voices/takes place over different aspects of their life. wincest isn't even canon, so there is no way of knowing 'how they got together' or how their dynamic plays out to different situations.

[(Anonymous)]

YMMV, but I don't think most Wincest shippers are under the impression that it's a healthy relationship. They ship it because it's kinda fucked up and there is legitimate subtext in the show between the brothers. Plenty of Twihards are under the impression that Bella & Edward's relationship is beautiful and romantic and something to be emulated.

Yeah, no.

[(Anonymous)]

I've been out of fandom for a while, but I always got the impression that wincest shippers know it's wrong but don't fucking care. Moreover, that bleeds over to the fic. I haven't read a SINGLE fic-- and I've read MANY-- where the brothers thought their co-dependence was "normal" or healthy", and this is in both wincest and gen fic. In fact, the fact that their relationship is so wrong is usually the main angst/drama factor in most wincest fics.


Most twilight fans genuinely think that Bella and Edward's relationship is not only completely healthy, but totally ideal. And I know this BECAUSE I used to be in the fandom. Of all the fics I read, only ONE (1) ever questioned how creepy their relationship was/how controlling Edward was, and that fic was an AU where Edward was purposefully controlling.

And that right there is my issue with Twilight. Sam and Dean's relationship is far from healthy and the majority of the fandom (particularly the writers) know it. Heck, the characters know it.

As far as Twitards are concerned there is absolutely nothing wrong with Bella/Edward ~at all~, and the characters themselves seem to think that their twu luv is perfect.

[(Anonymous)]

You know what? I agree with you, OP.

[(Anonymous)]

Judge away. It's cute how you think we care.

[rbhudson]

I completely disagree

[(Anonymous)]

Thinking something is fucked up and shipping it are not mutually exclusive. That's like saying people aren't allowed to like problematic shows (which would mean no one should watch anything ever).

It's when you romanticize those fucked-up aspects or refuse to acknowledge them that shit gets dangerous.

[rivia]

Maybe if SPN didn't frame the Winchester's relationship (talking about the show itself, not fic) as not being as truly fucked up as they regularly go out of their way to point out. But they've spent years going "wowie dude you need some other friends", which is differently from how Edward and Bella's relationship is framed. And marketed. To a bunch of tweens who believe that relationship is a good one.

[(Anonymous)]

The difference between Twilight and Wincest (and other 'messed up' pairings) is that Twilight is presented as being an ideal romance that we should all aspire to. I don't know a single person who would aspire to have a relationship that is like Sam and Dean's (even taking away the natural sexual component in shippy fics). I'm sure there are fluffy Wincest fics that ignore the disturbing nature but I've read a few fics and a LOT of meta and it seems like very few people can ignore how disturbing it is.

I don't ship Wincest, btw. But that's why I find Wincest 'acceptable' in fandom terms and people using Twilight as a model makes me wince. Because Twilight doesn't acknowledge how disturbing it is and presents itself as a romance, largely because Stephenie Meyer simply doesn't seem to realise how fucked-up what she's written is, which is kind of terrifying. I have no problem with people shipping Edward/Bella (or Jacob/Bella, that has its own issues) if they're aware that it's messed-up. It's people going around wishing they were Bella or wishing they had their own Edward that makes it different (and sad) for me.

[(Anonymous)]

Personally, I think the relationships themselves are equally fucked up, given the dynamics of the characters. As has been pointed out above, Bella was suicidal over losing Edward but Sam and Dean have done several things at various points that were dangerous to the point of being suicidal even if they weren't consciously thinking "I'm going to kill myself." And I don't think "well, it's different because Sam/Dean aren't canon" is a valid argument because given the way the show treats their relationship (or at least did the past, not so much anymore) for all intents and purposes they might as well be. Sure, it's not sexual with Sam/Dean, but emotionally I don't really see a difference between the two relationships. They're both massively co-dependent.

The difference is in the way they're portrayed. Sam and Dean know they're fucked up and the majority of the fans know they're fucked up, while with Twilight that kind of relationship is depicted as the ideal that everyone should strive for. I don't know, I just find it hard to be bothered by anything Sam/Dean do when you have a guy doing things real life abusive boyfriends do and then tell young girls that it's "romantic" and something they should want in their own lives.

Just, no. No.

[(Anonymous)]

...is there a lot of overlap with these two fandoms that i'm not aware of?

[(Anonymous)]

They're both fucked up. Unfortunately the shippers couldn't care less.