[ SECRET POST #2637 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2637 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 070 secrets from Secret Submission Post #377.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

07. http://i.imgur.com/rJ5bfCn.png

[(Anonymous)]

I sometimes forget that portions of Tumblr think everyone's world revolves around race.

Here is the thing, many places (in the US and internationally) are not as racially diverse as most people think.

So, if say a white person only grows up around white people, they are likely going to be attracted to white people.

Now, if a Japanese person grows up in a predominantly Japanese community, take a guess on what ethnicity/race most of their fancasts are going to be.

This isn't a conscious, decision. The people are not going, "Fucking _______ people, my fancast is just gonna be _____________."

[(Anonymous)]

Because we all know racism is 100% conscious hatred. It's never subtle preference. So what if most realtors slightly prefer white people and try harder to find them good houses? Or renters slightly prefer white people and will take an ok white tenant over a great black tenant? Or that millions of those people making tiny decisions over and over would have any measurable effect on life as we know it.

Nope. The only way to be racist is to put on a white hood and scream obscenities. Everything more subtle than that gets you a big shiny gold star that goes Not Racist At All.

[(Anonymous)]

It may be an unconscious thing, but that doesn't make it right. People participating in fandom, especially those who are BNFs, should be aware that the things they are putting out there are being looked at/read/admired by other people. Race IS an important issue, even if you (indefinite pronoun) live in the whitest of all places. While ignoring that and letting yourself focus on just white people may work in your offline day to day life, it's not acceptable behavior in the online world and you are acting in the role of a content creator.

That's not to say people should force characters of color into a particular setting or what have you that wouldn't have variance (which is shitty but does happen), but that they should make the effort to see outside of themselves and that they're affecting other people by choosing to not include them. To have an awareness that those who have a different skin color than white are severely marginalized and by excluding characters of color from all of their works they are actively negatively affecting other people.

With the way the world and internet are right now, race is a topic in every fandom no matter how small. Unless they live under a rock entirely or they're new to all this, it's doubtful someone will have no idea.

Internalized, unconscious racism is still racism, and it's not okay.

(Also, this is the Internet and not the US/Canada/UK/any other country or similar endeavor. It certainly is NOT Small (or Mid) Town America, where you can find places with few/no non-white folks. In fact, I'd go on to say that the Internet is everywhere BUT where you're living, unless you live in a very large city. It is diverse and has people from every corner of the world, as does fandom. Saying "But where I (indefinite pronoun) live there's only white people!" is both ignorant AND racist.)

[dreemyweird]

I wrote an angry comment saying that you have no idea about context, historical and cultural backgrounds, stylistic variety, and authorial intent, but on the second thought, you probably meant a specific fandom (seeing as you said "our book-based fandom").

Sorry for jumping at you, OP, I obviously can't judge that when it comes to specific books.

[(Anonymous)]

In the absence of detailed description, I tend to think of book-people as being like me, like the people of my community, like the people I see around me.

You can draw from that whatever conclusions you wish.

[(Anonymous)]

... but who lives in a place with zero non-white people? I mean really, none at all?

[(Anonymous)]

This is dumb, it should be context-specific. Like if I'm fantasy-casting "Crime and Punishment" why wouldn't I use all white people?

[(Anonymous)]

There's two different kinds of racist, you know -- the "conditioned to automatically assume white=neutral," which is something very few people can help unless they have the luck to be educated and highly self-aware about these issues, and actual intentional racism. If you think the first one, well, you're probably right, but that kind of racism is NOTHING similar to being a "big ol' racist" like you describe.

[(Anonymous)]

Are those elves? Is this Tolkien? Because I can't empathize at all with you if that's the case; ever since I read these books as a kid his characters have always seemed so white to me. Like the characters in European fairy tales (that I also read around the same time). The idea of someone who looks like me or the people around me being in that universe seems completely alien and impossible. I mean, I can see your point if the books in question were Harry Potter, let's say, but... didn't he mean to write these story as legends for Britain?

WHAT IS THE BOOK OP

[(Anonymous)]

Your answer to the question posed in the subject line will allow us here at the FS Department of SJW Deportation Immigration to declare whether you are sufficiently-hinged to integrate with the FS community, or if you are un-hinged to the point where you would be a danger to yourself and others in the FS community.

Do I really need to add a "I am being snarktastic here" tag to this?

[(Anonymous)]

Nope. Nooooooooooope. I'm sorry but there's no easy way to say this - that is fucking stupid.

If they are actively opposed to or offended by the notion of casting the characters as non-white, then maybe you can assume that they are kind of racist. But casting characters whose race is not described does not make you racist and it is fucking stupid to say it does. The fact that it is possible or conceivable that some characters could be PoC does not make it mandatory that they be. It is a valid option but only an option. And calling people racist for stupid as hell reasons is both dumb and terrible.

This is especially true in Tolkien's work (which, from the pic, I assume you're referring to at least in part). It is perfectly reasonable to assume that Tolkien, who was a European writing a fantasy work deeply inspired by the folklore and culture of Northern Europe, thought of his characters as white when not described otherwise. That doesn't invalidate interpretations where they're not, but calling someone a racist for thinking of them as white is completely off base. Don't do this dumb shit.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, you're just making your life more sad and difficult by assuming the worst of people. Not everyone has a "equal racial representation" automatic filter in their head when they picture book characters. There is nothing racist about imagining a character as white. Especially if you are white, grew up in a white community, reading literature where, sorry to say, most characters ARE "white" unless specifically mentioned otherwise, as written by white authors (as in, narrators and white characters are likely to note a non-white character's skin color or facial features and basically mention the race, but they don't for other white people).

Do I think it is wonderful when books are cast in movies and do cast some characters as non-white? Absolutely! Is it racist to have an image of white people in your head? No.

[(Anonymous)]

This is like those posts you see on Tumblr that are like, "IF I JUST SEE WHITE GUYS ON YOUR BLOG YOU ARE RACIST!!!11!!!111!!!"

Like, what is the pictures of POC reblogging quota you have to hit every month?

[(Anonymous)]

Huh. I wasn't expecting people to agree with OP, but I was expecting less of 'if all my friends are white it's normal to only think of white people when you read'.
I mean, I think that thinking of white people as the 'default' and thinking of anything else as 'other and alien' should be an...obstacle to overcome? Like once you catch yourself thinking it you should maybe think about why that is, and maybe consider the other possibilities?

[gondremark]

I'm white, my family is white, and I grew up in an area that's a pretty even mix of white and Hispanic.
So when I'm confronted with a book character, my default unwitting imagination usually casts the character as white, unless there's a hint that the character is not white, in which case I imagine her or him as Hispanic, because that's my frame of reference. I guess I'm a big ol' racist, because if Default Person is either white like my entire family or Hispanic like half the people I knew growing up. Or maybe the fact that I have a default that's something-other-than-white makes me all shiny and "perf" and "flawless" according to Tumblr.

It's kind of funny, though, because every now and again I'll come across a character that I was sure was canonically Hispanic, and it turns out she or he is black or Asian.

[chardmonster]

When you get really upset over the content of fucking fancasts, I'm going to go ahead and assume you're a big ol' dork.

[(Anonymous)]

Doesn't this rely, like, ENTIRELY on the setting of the book?

For example, Italy is mostly white. Therefore, a fancast for a book set in Italy should probably be mostly white.
Japan is mostly Asian. Therefore, a fancast for a book set in Japan should probably be mostly Asian.
England is mostly white, and of the non-white people, there are more of Asian descent than Black/African descent, so a fancast should probably be mostly white, and with more Asian people than Black people.

[rbhudson]

I agree *shrug*

I hear you, OP.

[(Anonymous)]

But that's pretty much fandom at large. I have seen so many folks get so absurdly angry at the thought of including people who aren't white, thin, and able-bodied that it's ridiculous. Variety in casting isn't hurting anyone and the racist, hateful people need to pipe down.

Image source?

[(Anonymous)]

Does someone have a link to the image used in this secret without the text?

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

I don't know what you mean by the "ton of edits" bit there. Do you mean the "fandom darling" you're alluding to constantly edits and re-edits to include more or less racial references? Because if it's just editing for clarity of story-telling, spelling and grammar, I don't see why it's relevant to the racial representation issue.

Now for the most part I actually have little problem with extra racial representation, but I do think there's a point where randomly dumping POCs in will end up looking ridiculous if it's one POC surrounded by a pile of white people.

To use your background image as an example: I can imagine some groups of Avari (Elves who refused to going to Valinor in the first place and thus never even managed to be parts of groups like the Nandor (Mirkwood and Lothlorien natives) or Sindar (Beleriand natives - Thranduil, Legolas, Celeborn and a high proportion of Rivendell, as well as Elrond being Sindar on his mother's side) being POC, but I have severe doubts - ones based on how Tolkien tended to describe the Eldar races - that any Noldor or Sindar Elves would be POC. Show me susch a fancasting? I will ask why the rest of the Elves of that race are not POC as well. Even then, a fancasting that makes Noldor and Sindar Elves POC, while cool, is just AU to me.

On the other hand I was quietly cheering when I noticed some of the crowd in the Lake Town scenes in DoS were POC, so even though PJ casts his Elves all white, he is not so strict with some human communities, like Lake Town.

Like I said, I don't mind POC representation, but I want some logical thinking to it. Does it fit the setting? Or will they stand out like a sore thumb? And don't start telling me "It's fantasy! If there's magic and dragons logic no longer applies!". That's just bullshit to get your way and have your one lone illogical POC in the middle of a crowd of dumb whiteys. One Smart POC in a crowd of dumb whites starts to seem like a Magical Negro to me, and others in this thread have said that's not a good trope.

[(Anonymous)]

I like white people, therefore my characters are white, and the characters whose appearance I'm free to imagine as I like are white also. Pocs can go whine to someone else, they have no right to leech from me.

[(Anonymous)]

I'd rather have an all white fancast than those fancasts where they try to cast POCs in all kinds of roles for SJW points and fail because it's always the same very few POC actors because they don't know any others and they keep casting anyone brown-ish for POC roles no matter if the ethnicity fits or not because "OMG I'M SO NOT RACIST!" but "THOSE BROWN PEOPLE ALL LOOK THE SAME!"