[ SECRET POST #3774 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3774 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 13 secrets from Secret Submission Post #540.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

08. http://i.imgur.com/gqoL5xx.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

Why does it bother you so much? Even if you don't think that there's any social justice component, at the absolute minimum, it's just people wanting more people to like their ship, which feels basically ubiquitous in fandom. It's not like wanting more people to ship your ship is unique to pairings involving POC.

And I do personally think that the social justice aspect has some juice to it - I'm loath to say anything about anyone's personal ships, but when you look at the patterns on a macro level it's hard to deny that fandom has a consistent tendency to ship non-white people way less. But you don't even have to agree with that.

[(Anonymous)]

Too many people have said they have been intimidated by SJW to attempt writing POC characters or even shipping them for fear of being fetishists.

It's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't scenarios.

[(Anonymous)]

Like. At the risk of recapitulating the entire last 10 years of discussing social justice issues in fandom, all I can really say is that I don't believe that accounts for the difference. Maybe some of it. But it's not like we're just talking about writers. You can also get a general sense of how many people ship stuff, and how popular the stories that do get written are, and all of those things. And the patterns hold up there.

I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why stuff happens, I'm not going to pretend it's simple, but I am very convinced that race is one significant element in that. I think probably people go too far in complaining about "white cock" but I also think it probably exists.

[(Anonymous)]

this, so much.

I happen to find a great variety of people IRL and fictional characters appealing, but I've become hesitant to admit to liking anyone who's a POC for that very reason.

(And personally I don't feel I'm fetishizing anyhow. Just as I only find some white people attractive, I only find some PoC attractive. I don't find someone attractive because of their race; their race, like their gender identity, is just one component of whatever their particular alchemy is.)

[(Anonymous)]

NA

You know I have A LOT of people saying that they're too "intimidated" to write PoC because of SJWs.

I have never seen someone saying that you can't write a PoC. The only thing even REMOTELY close that I've seen is "when you write PoC, don't write them like a blatant fetish please and thank you", which I mean, I understand considering how much submissive Asian and "big black dick" stuff I used to see in fandom. (And even then nobody was like, calling out these individual authors for writing fetishizing stereotypes.)

I'll be honest, I think this is mainly a cop-out. I don't doubt it happens sometimes, but there just isn't this huge push of PoC who want to restrict white people from writing PoC. Fuck, look at things like Overwatch fandom. It's like 90% white people writing a multitude of PoCs and nobody is having a hissy fit.

[(Anonymous)]

Bullshit.

They're looking for a goddamn excuse and now they have one. There wasn't a giant abundance of non-fetishy PoCs before modern SJWs, so your point means jack and shit.

[(Anonymous)]

"Your pairings mean you're racist and you should stop shipping them or go kill yourself."
has never, in the history of the internet and probably well before that, resulted in someone going "Wow, you're right! Thanks for opening my eyes. Screw Reylo, I'm a Stormpilot shipper all the way now!"

[(Anonymous)]

I agree that many people on the Internet are stupid and awful

I don't have any other reply to you here

[(Anonymous)]

Shouldn't your example be Kylux instead of Reylo?

[(Anonymous)]

Bitching about too much white cock feels less like "Come ship my POC ship because it is awesome!" and more like "You're a racist douche for shipping the thing you like. You should ship the thing I like in an attempt to prove to me that you are not an asshole."

One comes across better than the other.

[(Anonymous)]

You're kind of touching on a complex issue here, like there's definitely racism in fandom and part of that comes into shipping and even into slash pairs.

And while yes, it's kind of uncool to harass an individual for liking what they like... why is it that they *do* like that white pairing? Is it because there are more white faces in entertainment? And they are seen as more desirable? Is it because *we all* take in those racist messages that we are sent on a daily basis?

Like I will grant you that fighting prejudices that are so deeply instilled in people is hard, we all have them, no matter how "woke" we think we are. But what is the answer if people are not allowed to openly criticize how much more popular white pairings are? Is shutting down the conversation for the best?

[(Anonymous)]

I'd say the answer is promoting non-white pairings. Make huge efforts to push them and show how much they have to offer. Do pairing weeks, do fic exchanges, do art contests, put out meta, commission things. Focus on building up instead of tearing others down.

The number one thing I see souring people on pairings is if they're negative towards other pairing fans.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT

I am like... 90% confident that doing this will not have any effect

I am also like 95% confident that negativity doesn't actually sour people towards other pairings and people who say that are mostly justifying ships they'd be into anywawy.

[(Anonymous)]

I think those are good suggestions. But I also think there are fans out there already making those efforts and they only go so far.

I can see how negativity can sour people, but at the same time, I don't know that I agree that fandom should never be critical. That's part of what fandom does, it observes, it critiques. And while I would never support harassing individual fans I do think people have a right to complain if they are frustrated.

[(Anonymous)]

Probably because there's still a much larger number of white characters out there to choose from than there are POC characters, so it's easier for people to find white pairings with the dynamics that they like? I mean, unless you're into Asian fandoms, if you pick any given canon, chances are it will have more white characters than POC ones. Which sucks and shouldn't be such a universal constant, but right now, that's the way things are.

[(Anonymous)]

Usually, when people talk about this, they're pointing at fandoms with major black characters who don't get shipped

I do think it's getting better than it used to be, though, most of the examples I can think of are from like a decade ago

[(Anonymous)]

This is true but I do think there's a lot of racism that is in fandom that not everyone wants to confront.

Like there are a few pairings I thought FOR SURE would be popular because they hit all the slash popular pairing buttons, but then I come to find out that they aren't because the pairing has a black man in it and the most popular pairing in fandom is two white men.

I've seen this happen a few times so it feels hard to only blame Hollywood with it's lack of diversity, fandom itself can be a problem as well.

[(Anonymous)]

Is there no room to discuss it at all? Should we pretend all racism has vanished from the face of the earth and it never influences the way even fandoms treat characters?

[(Anonymous)]

What do you want to discuss? People who are secure in their ability to appreciate people in all their various hues, will ship and write and draw those ships.

People who are less secure or afraid to cause fandom waves because fandom is full of bullies, will stick to safely shipping pairings that won't get them into trouble for attempting to go outside the safe zine as designated by fandom.

Meanwhile bullies will complain about Whitecock ships when they were responsible for intimidating people out of shipping them in the first place.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

This just reads like you justifying your whitecock ships to be honest.

There is not this huge wave of bullies waiting to come crucify you for writing PoC and this sounds more like a line that people tell themselves so they can feel like they're a victim. "I HAVE to ship all these white dicks, people will verbally rebuke me if I dare even LOOK at a dick that's darker than an albino in a blizzard! It's NOT MY FAULT."

Like, look, I don't do around harassing individuals for shipping a specific whitecock pairing because I'm not an asshole (guess what, I even ship some whitecock pairings myself!). But like the AYRT I'm not going to stop talking about the prevalent racism in fandom, passive and otherwise, just because it makes some fellow white people feel guilty for only shipping whitecock. Like it or not, society tells us what to find attractive:

http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/09/new-okcupid-data-on-race-is-pretty-depressing.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/09/no-blacks-is-not-a-sexual-preference-it-s-racism

It's more than a coincidence, it's more than "personal preferences", it's more than "media isn't diverse enough", it's more than that. Fandom is not immune to society's racism.

I have more faith in fandoms than that though. We're often a diverse group of people who embrace a lot of offbeat things. Fandoms can handle talking about how race affects people's fandom preferences.

[(Anonymous)]

I know it's easy for me to say this as someone who has no particular feelings about any of the controversial ships, but maybe the goal of these conversations isn't getting more people to ship POC cock, and it doesn't matter if it scares people away from reading some fic on the internet. Maybe the goal is to confront some ugly biases in fandom and make people feel uncomfortable.

+1

[(Anonymous)]

Fucking thank you. I have no stake in any of the ships being talked about here (never saw the new Star Wars for instance), but I never got the feeling that people talking about this were trying to bully others into shipping a particular ship. The only time I've ever really seen diversity being used as a bludgeon was by Klance shippers in Voltron fandom, but Klance shippers tend to be assholes who have a LOT more wank attached to their name than trying to claim that shipping an Asian guy with another Asian guy instead of a Latino guy with an Asian guy means you're racist. They're too busy calling everyone pedophiles and the race wank is an afterthought compared to that.

Whenever I see people talking about fandom's whitecock problem it's in the general sense. It's about bringing awareness to fandom and showing people that they're not immune from society's racism.

Re: +1

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Well I've seen a lot of fandom discussions that were not framed as being about general "awareness". Finn vs Kylo discourse (whoever you ship them with this seems to be the crux of it..? I'm guessing, it's not my fandom.) is definitely about liking the "wrong" characters for the "wrong reasons". And that can look messy and stupid, from both sides.

But in the end I'd rather messy and stupid than passively sidelining the black character because everyone finds it easier than confronting what we bring in from society. Like you say we're not immune.

I understand why people prefer fandom to be their non-political space, but on the other hand it's not like people don't learn and grow here. OP talking as if it's all about getting people to ship the right penises is just obnoxious.

[(Anonymous)]

So like with 'omg don't ship Legolas and Gimli that's PEDO and think of the survivors' doesn't actually think Legolas and Gimli is pedo they just hate the ship and don't care about survivors.... you're confirming that the people doing the discourse don't even care about their morally pure brownie point ships, they just enjoy making other fans unhappy for A Greater Cause? Or probably just that they hate the other pairings and like being able to use The Greater Cause to bully them and make themselves feel better. That's nice.