[ SECRET POST #3980 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3980 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.



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02.
[The Big Family Cooking Showdown]


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03.
[Michael Fassbender/Alicia Vikander]


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04.
[Team Fourstar/Dragon Ball Z Abridged]


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05.
[Nurarihyon no Mago]


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06.
[Candice Swanepoel (Victoria's Secret)]


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07.
(Stranger Things, season 2)


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08.
[Christian Bale]















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 40 secrets from Secret Submission Post #570.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

This is a question directly inspired by a debate/argument that anons are still having in the previous post about pirating ebooks. I'm not interested in continuing wank, however. Some opinions and questions arose from that thread that I find quite fascinating and I'm wondering how many people actually hold this point of view.

Several people seem to be of the opinion that piracy is not an issue because art, media or creative works of any kind should, intrinsically, be free. That their main purpose is to bring joy and entertainment to the world, and that purpose should necessarily override anyone's desire to sell it or keep it exclusive.

So my questions are these:

Do you agree? Should no one be making money from their creative endeavors? If so, why? Are creators entitled for wanting money for their creations? Are consumers entitled for wanting it for free?

What about in a utopia where everyone is elsewise financially stable? Or would it never be ok, and people should always have creative control / the option to sell and exclusivise their creations?

If people DO have a right to control and sell their creations, are there ANY conditions under which it is morally permissable for anyone to acquire them for free without the creator's consent? Should we exempt people from penalty if they can prove they could not have afforded it by other means, or that it has enhanced the quality of their life or mental health?

How far do we take this? What is defined as a creative / artistic work? Should all books be free? Should all music be free? TV? Cable? All visual artwork? Should wedding photographers not be paid? Should cinemas be free?

Should art be a social program? Would you be willing to pay an arts tax which would subsidize creators and give you unlimited access to any media you chose?

How do you feel about distribution of creative works without the creator's consent, regardless of whether the work is for sale? If a fic writer wanted to delete all copies of their fic, said that it represented a dark time in their life and its existence was affecting their mental health, do you think people should heed their wishes and delete whatever copies they had? Or do you think they should no longer have control over what they created?

How about intellectual property? If all media is free, does plagiarism matter? Does anyone actually own what they create?

I'm aware some of these are hotbutton issues but I would like to avoid wank where possible. I'm just interested to see how people react to the idea that artwork is intrinsically above transaction.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

I think you're kind of arguing against a straw man here, to be honest.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean and I would really like people's opinions on this.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[viv_vivillon]

I doubt anyone who isn't a troll is saying all creative work should be free but as someone whose entire income comes from creative work, I 100% disagree that creative stuff should be free.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm one of the people who was arguing against them at first, and I don't think they're trolls. I think it's actually a genuinely interesting idea, if unworkable in our current society. What about if you were otherwise financially stable? Would you mind your work being "free" then? Or how about if the government paid you a stipend to create works for the public?

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

I guess you could argue that creative endeavors shouldn't be monetized in some kind of abstract, ideal, after-the-revolution sense.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

DA Why not, though?

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

Trying to troll the fic writers/fanartists here? :)

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

No. I'm trying to start a philosophical discussion. I'd prefer to steer it away from the piracy aspect and see what value people intrinsically place on creation. I mean, we can talk about boners if you prefer. I just got inspired and thought I'd ask people's opinions.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

In our current economic climate, art should be treated like any other trade skill with loads of protections to prevent plagiarism only to protect livelihood, but don't take this as endorsement to uphold the current laws in place.

If posted publicly, non-profit oriented redistribution with credit should be fair game regardless of how the creator feels.

The idea of intellectual property is counterproductive and discourages creativity. As for the rules applying to art, something along a copyleft* philosophy would be my ideal.

*https://www.gnu.org/licenses/copyleft.en.html

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

Did anyone else think, "Hmmm, I remember that discussion, I'll join in" and then run face-first into the novel length comment with a dozen questions and think "On second thought, nah"? OP, I think you'd get more participation if you were able to make your point and ask your questions succinctly.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

Ouch. Ok. I'll try harder in the future.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

At the end of the day, I believe labor has value and everyone has the right to demand compensation in return for their labor, although I also believe everyone has the right to refuse compensation for their labor.

It's a more complicated question than just whether creators of arts should get paid, because behind all of those creative people are a whole lot of relatively less creative people who had to perform labor in order to bring about the creative work.

If I don't have to pay to see a play, that doesn't just mean I'm not compensating the actors and playwright and costumers and so on for their labor, I'm also not paying for the theater to turn on the lights, and thus I'm not paying for the burning of fossil fuels or manufacture of solar panels or whatever was done to create the electricity. I'm not paying the theater's water bill, and thus I'm not paying for the city to maintain its water mains, and pump water through them, and treat waste water. I'm not paying for the theater to hire a contractor to fix the roof when it leaks and I'm not paying the custodian who vacuums the lobby or the people who manufactured the vacuum.

If I don't have to pay for a book, I'm not paying for the paper its printed on, and the logging and processing at the paper mill, and I'm not paying for the machinery that printed and bound it or the driver, truck, and gasoline that delivered it to the store.

If I don't have to pay for a painting, I'm also not paying for the paints or the canvas or the brushes used to make it.

If I don't have to pay for digital art, that means I'm not paying for all the labor and resources it took to make the computer and other equipment it's made on.

Also, we already have programs funded by taxes and donations to support the arts.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

Not to mention the proofreaders, editors and typesetters (or equivalent) for ebooks! And the people who put them up on various sites for sale, and the people who design the covers...

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[hyarrowen]

I've had kinda the opposite opinion from a friend who writes a regular column for a newspaper. She's told me repeatedly and at great length, and in the face of detailed explanations from me, that I shouldn't be writing stories and putting them up for free on the internet.

Many non-writer friends have told me that I should be making money out of my writing - quite how, they don't specify.

I guess people just like to boss creative people around.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

Well, you can't monetize fanfic, obviously. But you can certainly monetize original stories. I use the Submission Grinder to find markets:

https://thegrinder.diabolicalplots.com/

Format your stories into something resembling Standard Manuscript Format, gin up a simple cover letter to the effect of "Dear Editors, Attached is a story of [thismany] words, titled [This Is My Awesome Title], for your consideration. Thanks for your time, I look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, Me [This is all my contact information]

And send them out to places that are open to submissions.

It's not that hard, other than getting used to rejection.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

It seems like whenever you can do something creative at a half-way decent level, everyone and their grandma is going to rush to tell you that you need to make money off that/switch to doing that for a living, regardless of what your existing job is, how much you love it, and whether you actually want to do that other thing professionally.

I'm starting to think some of my co-workers don't love this job as much as I do, because they tell me I should quit and become a pastry chef every time I bring in baked goods I made. (I think they're just trying to be complimentary, but I do not want to bake for a living.)

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[raspberryrain]

I think the defence of file-sharing usually comes from a different place than what you're describing. If it has crossed over into claiming that anything creative should be free, that's a big problem. I don't get to just take a physical piece of artwork.

File-sharers defend file-sharing as it is copying things, not stealing them. It can be based in a rejection of "intellectual property," or a sort of economic argument that once it's easy to copy something the price of a copy naturally goes way down; often both. Is it self-serving? Yes. But so is the idea of intellectual property.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

No, I don't believe that creative works should be free by default, any more than any other form of labor should be. If a particular artist is willing to give away their work for free, that's fine, that's awesome, but they aren't morally obligated to do so, and their choosing to do so does not mean that consumers have a right to take other artists' work for free - or to continue taking that artist's work for free should they choose to move to paid work in the future. Consumers who believe they deserve an artist's work for free because they want it and don't feel like paying for it and who refuse to use legitimate channels to obtain that work for free because it's inconvenient/they might have to wait are absolutely being entitled; consumers who don't pay but do go through legitimate channels are fine.

Unless we're talking about a post-scarcity environment where money is abolished and everyone creates everything for the sheer joy of creating and sharing it, then artists should always have the option to demand pay for their work, just like anyone else. If you don't want to pay them, you don't get to partake of their work.

It's not morally permissable for someone to acquire an artist's work for free without their consent, any more than it's morally permissable for someone to acquire the fruits of anyone else's labor for free without that person's consent. It's reasonable to make exceptions for something that's a necessity for survival - but movies, video games, and books aren't necessary for survival. Ever.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

Even if a book/movie/video game/etc keeps someone from killing themselves? Or brings them out of a terrible depression?

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

Picture this:

A broke af woman who's been screwed over by life finds strength and empowerment through a fictional woman she discovers and deeply relates to. The show she watches isn't even on Netflix, isn't at her local library, and there's no way she could afford a DVD box set.

An LGBT youth from a small town with a shitty library and a worse bookstore discovers a wealth of books about "people like them" actually do exist - and some of them are even available for free. Which is awesome, because said youth has very little money. Anyone from ANY hardship and walk of life discovers something that gives them hope and joy, through fiction.

You're still saying that these people are evil for taking what scraps they can to get them through? It's alright to say "pay for it or go to a library" if you just want any old bit of entertainment, but for people in marginalized communities, sometimes there just AREN'T other feasible options.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

People have a right to be paid for their work. This includes creative work.

Maybe there isn't a lot of overlap, but it seems like people who believe that "all art should be free" are the same people who think that minimum wage should be $15. So they obviously see some labor as valuable.

In the case of a fic writer, while I wouldn't say someone had a moral obligation to delete a copy that they had downloaded for their personal use, I would say that they would be morally wrong if they decided to post it so that other people could read it.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

I think both sides require a fair amount of idealism. Yes, it would be great if everybody got to make a decent living doing what they live. Yes, it would also be great if everybody got to enjoy the media they love for free, too.

Unfortunately, our society isn't like that. We live in a hard, cruel place where you do what it takes to survive. Whether that means selling fan art for profit, or pirating every TV show you watch and book you read. There are no "right answers" here. Only survival.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, it would be great if everybody got to make a decent living doing what they live. Yes, it would also be great if everybody got to enjoy the media they love for free, too.

I think these are two very different issues. Whether you get to make a decent living doing what you love depends on whether what you love to do is something people need or want enough that they are willing to pay for it. I don't think creative work has to be given away for free, but I also think no one is required to support artists whose work they don't want anyway (on an individual basis - government and charity support of the arts will sometimes spend money on things you don't like and that's just the way it is.)

I'm acquainted with this couple who live down the street from me. She has a corporate job and he's an artist. He says he's lucky if he makes $1,000 a year, because his art "isn't commercial." (I've never seen it.) He's not making a living off of his creative output because he's not making things enough people want to buy for enough money, but anyone who *does* want some of his art still has to pay for it. He gets to ask for money for his stuff and people get to say "Sorry, I don't like that painting." I don't think he's entitled to a living from his art just because he's an artist, but I do think he's entitled to put a price tag on his work and no one's entitled to steal from him.

Re: Should creative endeavours ever be bought or sold?

[(Anonymous)]

That thread was interesting for a number of reasons. One thing I noticed is that it was 99% anon. I know for a fact that I have seen certain named users arguing and justifying piracy before; wonder where they all mysteriously disappeared to? Or are they actually all over the thread, and just don't have the nuts to stand behind their selfish stances? That would mean they realise it's wrong but still can't bring themselves to give up their thieving ways. Hmm.