Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-05-13 08:02 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-05-13 08:02 pm
[ SECRET POST #1592 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
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02.
[BSG]
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03.
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04.
[Yu-Gi-Oh 5Ds]
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05.
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06.
[Supernatural]
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07.
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08.
[Glee]
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09. [repeat]
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10.
[Once Upon A Time In Mexico]
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11.
[Breakout Kings]
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12.
[Supernatural]
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13.
[Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae o Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai]
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14.
[Invasion America]
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15.
[Zork Nemesis]
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16.
[Waiting for Godot and Good Omens]
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17.
[Withnail & I]
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18.
[Gorillaz]
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19.
[The Young Riders]
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20.
[Pride & Prejudice]
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21.
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22.
[Shantae: Risky's Revenge]
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23.
[bbc sherlock (lestrade)]
[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
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24. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]
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25. [SPOILERS for Ghost Trick]
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26. [SPOILERS for Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey]
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27. [SPOILERS for Death Note]
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28. [SPOILERS for the Tudors]
29. [SPOILERS for Transformers: Dark of the Moon]
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30. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]
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31. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]
[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
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32. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, abuse]
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33. [TRIGGER WARNING for abuse/sexual assault]
[Glee]
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34. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]
[TRIGGER WARNING for parent death?]
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35. [TRIGGER WARNING for ]
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36. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, racism, abuse, and pedophilia]
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37. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-harm]
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38. [TRIGGER WARNING for sexual abuse]
[Kuroshitsuji II]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #227.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
no subject
Srsly. When the fuck was the last time you saw someone say, "Oh, I had someone Jewish get upset at me 'cuz my last post to the kinkmeme had Nazi fetishism in it. HAHAHAHA, WHAT A STUPID HO! IS THE OVEN TOO HOT FOR YOU, BITCH?"
No, I really want to know.
If you can't answer the call of, "LINK PLZ," then fuck you for this trolling wankbait. Because I have never seen anyone "mock" anyone who got upset at their controversial kink. Mostly I have only seen people get frustrated when they are called on the carpet for said kink OVER and OVER and OVER, and, "I can't change my kink, so why don't you just look the other way?" is taken as "dismissal."
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-14 04:07 am (UTC)(link)And FYI, not everyone bookmarks things like crazy. So when people say "link please" as a call for someone to show proof of something, the fact that the person doesn't/can't respond doesn't mean they're just making stuff up. -_-
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-14 04:22 am (UTC)(link)no subject
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-14 10:39 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-05-14 03:31 pm (UTC)(link)And if you're crazy enough to put notes on things that are offensive just on the off-chance that someday, someone might want to know about the offensive thing that you saw once on lj.
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Um, why is proving them wrong so important? It's an internet argument for godsakes, not a presidential debate. Getting that worked up about it to the point of saving links to stuff that pisses you off just in case you need to call someone you don't even know out with it later? That's the point at which you need to turn off the computer and reacquaint yourself with how people who actually have social skills handle the world.
I don't get internet fandom some days.
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There are many other uses for computers. Seriously.
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Maybe it happens, but the OP acting like it's common? Is full of shit.
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-14 04:16 am (UTC)(link)no subject
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One example, though...? I'm not really impressed by the idea that this is so widespread or accepted that it justifies the wankbait secret.
And I can easily link posts across the internet with several nasty insults from the other side ("You must be the same sort of people as the Nazis," - Nazi kink wasn't even involved - "I wouldn't allow people with your sexuality around kids," "You deserve to lose your job over your kink, you were probably flaunting it," - no, really - "You should kill yourself," "Get raped," - that last multiple times on f!s - etc.), but only one person's even attempted to list me an example in response here?
no subject
Also here on F!S: most any time anyone complains about a problematic kink, there are at least twenty people going, "Oh, fucking SJ Warriors, when will this SJ movement in fandom die already?"
There's the fact that people here are still mocking a "large reptile warning" on Shakesville, even though that was pretty obviously a "I know this is one of my own friends' personal, highly specific triggers" thing, not a "Oh, people will ask for warnings for anything" thing.
You could make a drinking game out of how many times people feel the need to say "no1curr" on any serious-issues-in-fandom secret.
You could also make a drinking game based on "YKINMK" and its variations. Arguing with an acronym is pretty dismissive. :-/ It says, "Your pain is not even worth engaging with for more than ten letters."
And that's just here on F!S. Anyone but me remember zvi's three-page, five-hundred-person clusterfuck comparing triggers to allergies and requests for warnings to asking a cook for her special secret recipe? Or the assholes who trolled impertinence's post about what a trigger is, saying she was clinging to her victim status and shouldn't even be in fandom? Or the miscegenation wank on
ETA: BTW, if I had to guess, this secret is in response to this thread: http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/682799.html?thread=435978799#t435978799
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 06:48 am (UTC)(link)Secondly, nine times out of ten, no one is doing anything wrong. Warnings have been observed, traditions have been followed, the seventeen ritual goddamned candles have been lit and all should be well...except that, again, someone wants to start shit, and they will come up with any excuse to do so. Like, for example, the whole kerfluffle over the genderqueer person who couldn't enjoy a show anymore because a friend of a friend said it appealed to
"both genders". Seriously?!
Another example would, indeed, be LARGE REPTILE WARNING. What the everliving fuck. Shakesville is already supremely ridiculous in my mind, and a hive for sfda-ri, but that just is the crown goddamn jewel. I mean...how does that even work? Do you have a specific medically diagnosed phobia of large reptiles (i.e. seeing one makes you need to cry for hours somehow?) I would hope so, because no, you do not get to ask for trigger warnings just because you don't fucking like it.
Which is why YKINMK was invented. You do not get to say something is anathema just because you don't fucking like it; you are not the Internet Pope, and you don't get to make an Index Librorum Prohibitorum. If you were warned and you read anyway, that is on you. People are not going to stop the world for your pain. No one does care about it that much. No one has to.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 06:59 am (UTC)(link)I'll give you a hint: sfd_anon is a place full of wanky, drama-loving anons who just so happen to tend to give about 2 shits more about SJ stuff than the vast majority of people on the internet. The fact that they care about SJ stuff doesn't mean they're not also assholes and wankmongers a lot of the time. And the fact that a lot of the anons are wanky assholes doesn't mean that the moment people from sfd_anon get involved in a conversation it will just be pointless trolling.
Also. There are so many people vehemently opposed to the idea of warning because somehow it's kinkshaming, so many people who will argue to the death that what they've written doesn't deserve a warning because they don't think there's anything of questionable consent or what have you in it, that I have a hard time believing that 9 times out of 10 it's just people kicking up a fuss for no reason when all the appropriate warnings are in place.
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 10:18 am (UTC)(link)But the sfda-ri (the really hardcore wanker contingent) are like the self-proclaimed "/b/-tards" in that they don't care about the content of a discussion, they just want to jump on someone and tear them up. And people associate actual social justice with trolololol, and that leads to the whole "SJ WARRIORS AUGH" attitude, and it's just fucking dumb.
....That second part. Uh. Welp, I guess my thoughts on that are that if you aren't warning about what's in your fic, then, yeah, you're an asshole. :\ I mean, you don't have to warn about everything, and if the prompt said "RAPE FIC WANTED" and you wrote a rape fic people should not be shocked when, in fact, it is a rape fic, but the Internet and your kink do not excuse you from common social graces. Warning isn't kinkshaming.
(no subject)
(Anonymous) - 2011-05-16 05:50 (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
(Anonymous) - 2011-05-16 18:18 (UTC) - Expand1/2
Right. Of course. I forgot, the entire world is all fixed now and nothing bad ever happens. No one is ever ignorant, no one is ever hurtful, no one is ever mean or wanky, no one ever dies and everybody lives happily ever after.
Like, for example, the whole kerfluffle over the genderqueer person who couldn't enjoy a show anymore because a friend of a friend said it appealed to
"both genders". Seriously?!
You know, we don't actually have the context for that? Or even the entire statement that was made? Somehow, I'm guessing it was more complicated than that, but once again, a person in pain's entire thesis statement on what hurt them was boiled down to its simplest, most nonsensical form, so that it could be mocked, dismissed, ignored. Made into a joke that no one has to care about, that can't possibly be worth discussing or examining or thinking about, because oh no, caring about other people is G-ddamn hard.
Another example would, indeed, be LARGE REPTILE WARNING. What the everliving fuck. Shakesville is already supremely ridiculous in my mind, and a hive for sfda-ri, but that just is the crown goddamn jewel. I mean...how does that even work? Do you have a specific medically diagnosed phobia of large reptiles (i.e. seeing one makes you need to cry for hours somehow?)
Have you never heard
"Large reptile warning" is the same bloody thing. A gesture from someone who knows that secret about someone else and cares enough about that specific person to not care if they look a little ridiculous in public.
I would hope so, because no, you do not get to ask for trigger warnings just because you don't fucking like it.
Now who's acting like the Internet Pope? Do you blog at Shakesville? No? Are you friends with any of the regulars? No? Then who are you to say what they can warn for and what they can't? Who are you to say that they can't provide what services they want in their own space to their own regulars? Isn't the whole crux of this argument that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do in their own space? Who are you to tell people that just because you don't want to do something, they shouldn't?
Re: 1/2
(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 10:48 am (UTC)(link)Not what I said, or what I was even implying. I know, I know, intent isn't magic and you can't read my implications, so here we go: what was implied here was that in my experience, and this is just my experience, people in my fandoms have been sensible enough to follow the necessary traditions. In the wider sampling I see from F!S, people also seem to be sensible enough to follow necessary traditions.
When those necessary traditions are followed, and people start shit, can we at least agree that that is unnecessary trolling? That that is kink-shaming? Cause, uh, I don't know any other word for it, and I dislike that people can cover it up with a veneer of socially respectable horseshit. Social justice is an important enough thing that clogging it up with that kind of crap is just dumb.
You know, we don't actually have the context for that? Or even the entire statement that was made? Somehow, I'm guessing it was more complicated than that, but once again, a person in pain's entire thesis statement on what hurt them was boiled down to its simplest, most nonsensical form, so that it could be mocked, dismissed, ignored. Made into a joke that no one has to care about, that can't possibly be worth discussing or examining or thinking about, because oh no, caring about other people is G-ddamn hard.
You're right, we don't, and all we have is fragmentary evidence. But entertaining the idea that, perhaps, the fragmentary evidence is true, which I tend to believe, that sort of shit is pretty goddamn silly. I mean, I'm sorry that someone was hurt. I will add the caveat that this is true if someone was, in fact, emotionally hurt, and didn't just take umbrage at a common expression and decide to start shit over the Internet.
It is a little weird and interesting to me how very much people (like yourself) do end up caring about people's delicate personal feelings and willing to place faith in their proclaimed identities, but that's another tangent.
(I'm going to take the liberty of cutting the discussion of large reptile warning/trigger nature/etc., if you don't mind)
That is actually pretty fascinating, and I did not know about it (impertinence's story). In lieu of that, I am sorry, and I should have looked for more context despite how much I dislike Shakesville and its regulars.
In my mind, that makes it as valid as a medically diagnosed phobia, and I must eat a considerable amount of crow. On its face, I still think the concept of a "large reptile warning" is rather ridiculous, but you can't choose what's associated with abuse.
However. There are, also, people who misuse the whole concept of triggers, and use it as a "censor" button for things that they don't like for whatever reason.
I suppose I did come off as preaching to the regulars of Shakesville on the "large reptile warning" thing. Again, what I mean is that no matter how strongly you disapprove of something or fear something (like, say, large reptiles), unless you have an actual condition attached to your reaction to it (phobia, trigger events), asking for a trigger warning is pretty fucking trivializing. It's dumb.
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And what if you weren't? Believe it or not, warnings are not standardized in every fandom, every community, every website, every journal, every blog. Some people will warn for eating disorders; some won't. Some people will warn for character death; some won't. Some people will warn for rape; some won't. Some will warn for racism in their historical AU; some think that the fic being labeled "historical AU" should be warning enough. Some people think "I don't warn" is a warning, even though it tells you nothing about what they're not warning for. Some people think "triggery" is a warning, even though they're not mentioning which trigger. I've had the fucking surreal experience of being told off by someone for warning for incest in my own fic, because warning for incest "stigmatizes people with an incest kink, and the pairing label should be warning enough." (In my space, where I'm friends with people who will read my fic just because they're my friends, not because they're in my fandoms? No, it's bloody well not, and don't tell me that I can't run my own damn space to accommodate that.)
There is no consistent rule. And people get hurt by that, and then we all fight for months about whether or not anyone should care. And complaining about other people caring too much in their own spaces makes you the enlightened one concerned about freedom, beauty, truth and art?
I would love to be able to dismiss you as a troll, but alas, I'm pretty sure you're 100% serious.
Re: 2/2
(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 11:02 am (UTC)(link)That experience of yours is pretty fucking surreal, and the person who said that to you is pretty dumb. If you think something should be warned about, warn about it.
In my own experience, and in my own spaces/fandoms, people have exhibited pretty good common sense. And if you aren't warning for something like, say, rape, or child abuse, or other common triggers, that is asshole behavior. Warning for eating disorders is also pretty necessary. Warning about racism seems similar, although if the historical AU is the Civil War or colonial America then maybe someone should expect it.
Warning for character death...that depends.
No, there is no consistent rule, and I'm not saying that people have no right to get upset when something blindsides them or that they can't fucking care all they want in their own spaces. But...I mean, what the fuck is gained by turning around and making secrets like this, where there's value judgment all over the place and people using the excuse of pain that might or might not be real (this being the Internet, and people being able to pretend behind a shield of anonymity that they are absolutely any form of human in existence) as an excuse to cause other people pain, embarrassment, or anger?
Nothing. Nothing is gained. It's dumb. That's why YKINMK was invented; that's why people end up arguing with acronyms and with no1currs. That's the crux of my whole disagreement with the sfda-ri and Shakesville. It doesn't help to come in riding a goddamned storm of fury and call people *ist anything. It makes one look like an asshole, and then it is reasonable to treat one like an asshole.
no subject
Large reptiles. Um. It was nice of that person to include a warning for their friend. But. Thought we were discussing mockery of things that are actually controversial, but I guess someone here has lost the thread of the actual conversation.
You could also make a drinking game based on "YKINMK" and its variations. Arguing with an acronym is pretty dismissive. :-/ It says, "Your pain is not even worth engaging with for more than ten letters."
After you've spent years and years defending yourself with the best-thought arguments you can express and getting back nothing but a pile-on of, "you're a horrible person, kill yourself" - unanon, mind you, people proud of those opinions and not trolling - you'd come back with ten letters eventually, too. I am pretty much at that point nowadays.
You're right though, no1curr about people deeply wounded by large reptiles. GUESS YOU WIN, THEN.
no subject
I'm sorry, were we competing? You asked a question. I gave an answer. If I seemed short with you, I apologize. It was very late, I was very tired (plus I've got a chest cold kicking my ass). So, sorry.
Thought we were discussing mockery of things that are actually controversial, but I guess someone here has lost the thread of the actual conversation.
I'm guessing that someone is me, but in my head, it made sense. Warnings are controversial. What to warn for is controversial. "Warnings creep" is an actual thing people express concern about every time the debate comes back up. ("If I warn for rape, character death, eating disorders, animal abuse, insert other common trigger here, people will start asking me for warnings for beach balls or the color orange! So I don't believe in warnings at all!" Yes, that really happened. (http://zvi.dreamwidth.org/528976.html?format=light))
After you've spent years and years defending yourself with the best-thought arguments you can express and getting back nothing but a pile-on of, "you're a horrible person, kill yourself" - unanon, mind you, people proud of those opinions and not trolling - you'd come back with ten letters eventually, too. I am pretty much at that point nowadays.
I am genuinely sorry that that has happened to you. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a horrible person because you have a kink that isn't kinky for everyone. (I don't want to suggest yours is a trigger when I don't know what it is- and you are not obligated to tell me what it is. Hi, we're strangers.) And I think anyone who tells anyone else to kill themselves- whether they're anonymous or not- is a horrible person.
But I think we're coming at this from completely different experiences in fandom.
Mine has been that kink is fandom's sacred cow and expressing discomfort with a kink (even if it's in a locked, cut, warned post on my own journal not naming any names or providing any links) will result in people telling me, "Don't judge" or "Don't shame." It counts as judging or shaming to say, "This hurts" somewhere well away from the person whose kink it is? How can that be?
And that...gets exhausting.
I'm Jewish. I live in a part of my country where Antisemitism actually is a part of my daily life. In fact, given that I'm religiously a convert (ethnically Sephardi on my mother's mother's side) whose parents practice something else, Antisemitism is part of interacting with my family and their friends.
For me, Holocaust kink AUs are not awesome. They hurt. People eroticizing the torture of Jews does, y'know, bad things to my mind. And sure, I can choose not to read; I do choose not to read. But quietly wishing behind my own locked door that this wouldn't occur unwarned for in places I hang out ('cause it does- oh, G-d, it does), being told that I'm shaming someone feels like being stabbed in the heart. I live in a world where a stranger's ability to get off on something that hurts me is more important to some people- people I've liked and trusted, for that matter- than my ability to live my life without feeling like people out there really hate people like me. (Yes, I know, having a Nazi kink doesn't mean someone is an Antisemite. ...but it does mean people are getting off on the concept of other people being Antisemites, and that's a pretty awful feeling, too.)
And at that point, I'm not experiencing this as a difference of opinion. I'm experiencing it as part of the pattern of discrimination. And I'm not the only one.
People (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411237075#t411237075) mock (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411694803#t411694803) that. (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411384275#t411384275) Not only do they mock it, they use it as fuel for hate speech. (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411209683#t411209683)
TL;DR- yeah. It happens.
I
Secondly, I got pissed because of you going off on what I think is a serious tangent with the triggers thing. Based on what you've said, I really don't think we disagree at all about triggers, and would probably be arguing the same thing in that debate (oh god, another debate I'm really sick of). But I consider it to be only somewhat related; generally, when people get upset about "offensive" kinks, it's not because they were actually triggered. (Or if they are, they do not mention it.)
But I think all of the usual potentially-triggering stuff should be warned for; I think it's a mistake to even call that "courtesy," because "courtesy" implies there's no real reason to do it. I don't see that as significantly different from the way offensive types of play (race play, "rape" scenes, Nazi-fetishism) is handled by the kink community in real life (not allowed or discussed in public spaces, or only in spaces clearly designated for that thing only, depending). That is, I think, the best compromise for kinks that make other people feel deeply violated and hated (although I doubt that is actually usually how the people with those kinks would want anyone to feel).
But when something IS warned for, yeah, people need to stop it with the shaming.
Someone I know in passing through these debates made the observation once that people who actually get involved in these discussions are nearly always leftists, and frequently social-justice types themselves. (Not only that, I'd observe that the majority are bound to be women as well.) And that there is probably not a group MORE emotionally vulnerable to the charge of "selfish slut!" than SJ leftist women, who already spend a significant amount of time worrying about the impact of their actions on others, and already spend enough time being shamed for their sexualities (as women).
Which is probably a large part of the reason why a significant portion of my kinky friends have been through periods of depression and/or suicidal ideation over their kinks, while the right-wing people I've met are unlikely to be bovvered so long as they're not "all sex is bad" types - and they're in the minority anyway, as self-identified kinky people are usually leftists or moderates, period.
And it's out of hand when people are not just feeling shamed in fandom, but actually leaving SJ movements over it. Not something I've been tempted to do myself, but I understand why others would.
Maybe as an American this is just "internet opinions" to you, but you live in a country where free speech is protected, and it's unlikely that someone is going to be successful in criminalizing every expression of sexuality they find offensive or hurtful to others where you are. Would it make you happy if possessing any pornography that might be offensive or hurtful to a group of people was made illegal where you are? The possibility fucking terrifies me.
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