[ SECRET POST #2183 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2183 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Sorry for late, overslept.

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 067 secrets from Secret Submission Post #312.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

03. http://i.imgur.com/XWcH9.png

[(Anonymous)]

You know that those are the legit no-gender pronouns, right? Not internet made up?

[femme_androgyne]

I don't mind someone using gender neutral pronouns for e.g., an original character who identifies that way (and who is in a context where it makes sense that they would), but if canon uses one set of pronouns, as with your examples, and an author insists on using gender neutral ones anyway, I assume that they're probably a douche who cares more about politics than canon accuracy. Instant back button.

[calystarose]

Gender neutral pronouns in English are, necessarily, 'made up'. That doesn't make them invalid. I know several people that prefer to go by a gender neutral pronoun (including those you've listed). "It" refers to inanimate objects and "They" is plural, it's not weird that people would try to find a pronoun that better fits who they are. And it's not weird to apply that gender neutral pronoun to characters who fall outside binary gender labels.

[indecent_butterfly]

You might not mind it, but how would you feel being all that?

An it is an object not a person in most people's minds and rather dehumanizing (for those who are human I suppose).

[(Anonymous)]

legitimate question

i only see discussion about these pronouns and stuff in english. how would people deal with very grammatically gendered languages? like, i speak a language where almost everything is gendered, including verbs. 99% of the time it's literally impossible to talk about someone without assigning them a gender. you'd have to invent not only new pronouns, but an entirely new set of grammar rules. what then?

[pynapel]

Wow, fuck you buddy. Not everyone is male or female, and some even prefer those pronouns.
Jump in a river.

[(Anonymous)]

...After trying out and discarding a number of cutting remarks, I'm just going to say: You made a number of spelling and punctuation errors, OP. Proofreading is your friend.

[(Anonymous)]

I know, it's a horrible scary thing to think that real people actually *use* gender neutral pronouns and don't follow your ideas of what pronouns you should use. Seriously, it's more silly to create a character that is non-binary and force them to your dumb standards.

[(Anonymous)]

I hate to break it to you but these aren't an invention of the Internet. There's been discussion of the need for gender-neutral pronouns in modern English (we used to have them in Middle English, but they fell out of use) since roughly the 1800s, and there were several sets of gender-neutral pronouns developed in the 1970s. Granted, Spivak pronouns were used and kind of popularized through LambdaMOO, but I kind of doubt that when you say they were made up by the Internet that that's what you mean.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Loki still used male pronouns while in Sif's body.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, hell's bells yes. Use him or her as appropriate. Shift between the two if necessary.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, I'm fairly certain Cas still referred to Raphael as "brother", even after he took on a female vessel. Granted, that could just be a quirk of the writers, but still. And I don't think Cas' gender was ever referred to when Claire was his vessel, either. I'm actually not big on zhe/ze/zir/whatever, but I have read good fic exploring the idea of angels' gender or lack thereof, and I don't think the pronouns necessarily need to be firmly tied to their vessel's gender.

[(Anonymous)]

This is why I stubbornly stick the the singular 'they'. I don't care if it's not grammatically correct, it's the most concise/quick/simple way to do it!

[(Anonymous)]

I like "they." Zim or Zie or what the fuck ever just sounds retarded. If I don't know what gender someone/thing is, they're either getting "it" or "they." And I just don't give too much of a shit if anyone cries about it.

[(Anonymous)]

How many pronouns exist now? Does anyone have a list of them all, and what they refer to?

I'm fascinated with this, and I want to learn more.

[(Anonymous)]

If it's a fic featuring a genderqueer individual, or exploring gender issues, I'm fine with it, because it's respectful to use those pronouns in those cases.

The stuff you're describing sounds like people trying to showoff about how politically correct they are and looking for problems where there aren't any.

[(Anonymous)]

I have nothing relevant to comment about your secret, but seeing Jimmy and Claire on Christmas Eve = aww. The Rapture was the saddest thing that ever happened on SN.

[(Anonymous)]

I was just discussing this with a friend BUT gender neutral pronouns make NO SENSE to me. Not because of the general idea behind them - but they are OBVIOUSLY based on the gendered pronouns we use.

'Ze'? 'Zher'? Those are so obviously he and her that it drives me nuts. If you could make a gender neural pronoun WHY would you then make them sound so similar to pronouns that are used ALL THE TIME.

[citrinesunset]

The gender-neutral pronoun thing is tricky since some people do use them. Personally, I'm not a fan of them and if I were writing a genderqueer or otherwise non-binary character, I would use "they." But I also try to respect the pronouns other people prefer.

As for the other issue, though--with sex-switching characters, unless it's established that they do switch pronouns, I'd rather have the pronouns stay consistent with their identity, not their body. Switching between "he" and "she" for a male character inhabiting a female body feels unnecessary to me, and like it's confusing gender with sex.

[cielo]

i find the whole ze/zhe/whatever ridiculous, but this may come from having spanish as a mother language (in which you can just ommit pronouns) and. i just can't grasp the concept orz

[(Anonymous)]

This is kind of probably mostly off-topic, but oyu know what fucking annoys me?

In gender-swap fics, when the 63'd character starts off as "he", gets switched into a female body, and then is promptly referred to in the narrative and by the other characters as "she". (Although presumably that would be IC for some characters, but the narrative has no excuse.) Even worse is when the character spends the rest of the story bemoaning his/her fate and is willing to do almost anything to restore his/her original body.

I'm fine with gender-swap fics as a whole. They can be fun and, in some canons more than others, an interesting insight into the minds of everyone involved. Plus a neat plot device. But if "she" was male five minutes ago, and "her" gender (i.e. the one he identifies as, not is physically) is completely the same, why in the world do the pronouns change? I mean, isn't the person in basically the same situation as trans* people, except with magic or whatever attached?

[shobogan]

I'm just devastated at the loss.

[(Anonymous)]

"It" is pretty incredibly dehumanizing and often used in a pejorative fashion toward people who don't conform to gender expectations, you realize? Good for you being okay with it, and if you want to identify as an "it" more power to you, but it is pretty legitimately insulting.

[(Anonymous)]

When someone uses "eir" all I can think of is Draco Malfoy and I automatically want to punch the author in their smug motherfucking face. Nothing against transpeople or the tragically genderqueer, but authors who jarringly fetishize both? All the fucks with a chainsaw I wish on them.