[ SECRET POST #3086 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3086 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Bit early, sorry!

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 062 secrets from Secret Submission Post #441.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

13. http://i.imgur.com/13OyH5n.png

[(Anonymous)]

Lol. Yeah fanfic writers police other writers for using character descriptors. And apparently this person has never heard writers go on and on about so-and-so's pale/creamy/tan/rosy skin.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, they keep pretending only dark skinned characters get the flowery (often food related) skin colour/complexion treatment lol

[(Anonymous)]

That tumblr post seems reasonable (and leaps beyond the "you can never and shouldn't even try to write 'outside your race' because empathy and sensitivity don't exist" thinking).

Sure, it's going to feel eggshell-awkward to ask for a black beta, but if you linked to that post and respectfully explained that's what you were trying to do, something surprising might happen.

(Heck, drop an ask to the author of that post naybe? They did indirectly offer.)

[(Anonymous)]

What color is the sky in your world, where you think that's a reasonable rant? People who pretend to be "color-blind" are doing just that, pretending. When there's only one black man in the room, I guarantee you everyone else notices he's black. Sorry.

[(Anonymous)]

The ranter ruined it for me by not knowing how to write "y'all." I mean, seriously. Pick up a book about Southern Americans and learn how to write about us respectfully.

[(Anonymous)]

this tumblr post is eye roll worthy, but I have to admit that I think they have a valid point buried somewhere in there. it kind of annoys me when a black character is constantly referred to as "the black man" and the fic never does the same for the white characters. it's just kind of weird (if a fic does the whole "dark skinned man" and "pale man" or whatever thing though then I guess that's fair. they're still annoying epithets, but fair.)

[(Anonymous)]

It kind of concerns me when people start thinking they can't write for different races/genders/sexualities/etc. YOU CAN. It's okay to fuck up. It's okay to "get it wrong." Heck sometimes you may not even be wrong, but some people still won't like it. Not every person in a particular group is going to agree about how to write them realistically, and that's okay.

I know the callout culture has started to scare people away from writing about certain subjects, but that's just going to create EVEN LESS diversity in writing.

Please write what you want to write, don't be afraid of criticism, but don't make it stop you from writing and sharing what you write.

[(Anonymous)]

I think OP of the tumblr post has a really good point tbh. I rarely, if ever see white characters described as "the white girl" or "the pale skinned boy." There's usually a reference to eye color or hair color/texture, or height. Sometimes I see flowery descriptors but almost exclusively during sex scenes from my experience. It's just weird to see characters of color constantly reduced to their skin in descriptions, and rarely anything else. I don't even see many flowery descriptions for them. It's remarkable lazy.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, that's a writing habit that you'd probably be better off kicking anyways, whether or not you agree with that post. I used to see so many rants on writing communities about people who are always referring to characters as "the blond" or "the brunette" or "the shorter man".

[(Anonymous)]

Stop blaming extremists and just owe up to the fact that you don't want to write black characters with even a quarter of the same consideration you'd write white characters/characters you can pretend are white.

This tired excuse is an insult.

[(Anonymous)]

I think this rant has a point, but do you really want to scare people off writing POC? That's cutting off your nose to spite your face. They could have gone about their criticisms in a less aggressive way. And yeah, I know someone is gonna yell *tone argument!!* here, but let's be realistic, here.

e_e

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, ficcers using physical descriptors is the problem here. Sure.

[(Anonymous)]

And it's even worse now. What if someone identifies as transracial? Yikes!

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not sure I understand the tumblr post's argument about POV. If they mean third person limited, why would Sam's POV be the only one who should mention a physical description of Sam. He's hardly going to be describing himself in his own head, not unless he's looking in a mirror before going on a date or something.

If they mean dialogue, yes, I understand better, but if someone is going around having Steve Rogers saying "Hey black man!" at Sam, I think it's bad writing for a whole slew of other reasons again.

Leaving that aside for a second, though, I kind of agree with them on using 'the black man' as the sole identifying descriptor of a character. If it's a stranger's POV, yes, maybe, for a lot of people that will be the first thing they notice, especially if Sam is the only black guy in the room. From someone more familiar with him, though, or even someone past the point of introductions, I think the person in this post has a point. People are more likely to think of him in terms of his profession or role in the conversation if they aren't thinking of him by a name/nickname, unless it's specifically from the POV of a racist character who's gotten hung-up on Sam's race.

I mean, it's not that you should never use the phrase 'the black man'. Depending on the circumstances and the character doing the thinking, it can be appropriate for the story. But you can ... I mean, it is jarring when it's just stuck in there for no reason. You can usually tell, I think, when it's the author that's gotten hung up on the character's race, not the other characters. I haven't read a lot of post CA:TWS fic, so I don't know that fandom's specifics, but I remember a lot of M7 fic where characters would be thinking of Nathan as 'the black man' when under the circumstances they'd more likely be thinking along the lines of 'the healer' or 'damnit Nathan!'. If Nathan's standing there up to his elbow's in someone else's blood, it's not the black man they'll be looking at, but the friend and the healer who's hopefully gonna be able to put him back together again. On the other hand, if they're standing in a saloon full of ex-Confederates who've been talking shit all night and Nathan walks into the bar, then I think they're gonna remember he's a black man very sharply. It depends on the circumstances, is the thing, but I think you can tell when it's out of place?

If they mean third person omniscient using those descriptors ... yeah, harder to excuse there. I don't usually see a lot of that in general, though. I think most writers I've seen prefer a narrower POV? Most third person omniscient fics I remember weren't very good in general.

[(Anonymous)]

Just stay away from epithets in the first place.

[(Anonymous)]

This rant remind me of a book I read years ago, the author's first. He referred to his main character as "the black man" at least once a chapter.

AND SO WERE ALL THE CHARACTERS WHO WERE NOT BLACK WOMEN. I don't know why he did that, but I had to keep stopping to figure out WHICH of the several black men in any given scene he was referring to. So yeah, awkward writing.

By a black author, as it happens, which felt a little weird to me. I could never find another of his books so I don't know if he kept doing the same thing.

[(Anonymous)]

Is it just me or does this post seem like it's written by a person who is purposely trying to come off as black-sounding (the abundance of unnecessary y'all's, for instance, and "cutting up with these foolish White boys"). I don't know if it's because they're a black person trying to make it clear this is a black person ranting about a topic concerning black people, or if they're an SJW troll or something, but the whole angry tone and language of the rant just seem so very affected.

You can post.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not a big fan of epithets, but they can be okay if used sparingly and for emphasis (you want to remind the readers of a specific characteristic that character has). But if you continually refer to a black character by their skin color and no other characteristic, then, yeah, you're kind of implying that that is their defining characteristic. If you don't want to use Sam's name for some reason, there are the descriptors mentioned in that post and also there's the facial hair, Pararescuer, Airman (or flyboy), his attitude, etc.

[intrigueing]

I think the tumblr ranter kind of has a point, tbh. It's really kind of weird and conspicuous when a black character is constantly referred to as "the black man" when the white characters are not referred to as "the white man." Once or twice when he first appears in the fic, (or to make a point when the guy's blackness is relevant to what's happening in the story) is fine, and I get that it's a convenient epithet like "the blond" and "the shorter man," but it just sticks out like a sore thumb.

Though IMO, when you're ranting about something like this, it's always a better bet to say "omg guys look at all the myriad ways this thing is so stupid and annoying" rather than "YOU! STOP DOING THIS BECAUSE I SAY SO. AND IF YOU DO IT AGAIN YOU SUCK." When someone focuses on the thing the writer is doing rather than the writer personally, it makes a huge difference.

[(Anonymous)]

If you use tons of epithets you're probably better off not posting, anyway.

Besides being a fan of solid writing, I'm also put off by people like you using straw man arguments: The idea of "SJW" fans or "angry fans of color" attacking anyone specifically is completely ludicrous. You're just not willing to put any effort into writing anyone of color, and this is a handy excuse.

Go on, kid, whine some more instead of improving as an author. I'll wait.

well that's an unhelpful rant...

[(Anonymous)]

I understand the value of random venting. I do. However, this isn't helpful because there is absolutely no concrete advice for anyone reading the rant about what (In the ranter's opinion) they should do instead of "the black man" or food flavored descriptors. Their only advice is "find a black writer to beta." Really? When it is hard enough to find a beta in the first place, now the poor lowly writer has to make sure that they are black on top of it? And then what if the beta is lying? And what do we call them? I mean...

Seriously, this is why names were invented. Or simply saying "the man" or "the other man." A lot of fanfic writers are either young or amateurs. They do this for fun and don't know a lot about the craft of writing or don't care. Description isn't easy. So, I'd rather have a few "the black man" to remind me that "okay that character is black" as opposed to no description at all, which leaves me with a terrible case of stick figures.

I won't even get into what their considering American Black slang these days. (Feels like a cranky old woman.)

[(Anonymous)]

You should probably just break that habit in general because over-reliance on epithets is just bad writing.

[(Anonymous)]

if you write frequent epithets, your not posting your fic online is no big loss tbh

that's actually a fairly reasonable sounding tumblr post

[arcadiaego]

To be honest I find describing people by a physical characteristic instead of naming them bad writing anyway (we already know what they look like and the other character certainly does!). So I don't think that this is advice that is out there or difficult to follow. The only thing that I'd take issue with is thinking that this is a racist thing when people do it across the board. It does come across as objectification though.