[ SECRET POST #3517 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3517 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 58 secrets from Secret Submission Post #503.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

05. http://i.imgur.com/twccFYg.png

Transcript by OP

[fscom]

Collapsed for length.

[chardmonster]

So is someone paying you by the word or something?

[(Anonymous)]

I don't understand why slash porn gets different expectations or treatment than literally every other kind of porn.

"Big daddy dominates emo twink hardcore ep. 1-200" doesn't get people railing at it about how no, the emo twink should be vers and top the daddy. "Big soldier boy submits to master and licks boots Series 140" doesn't get people complaining at it about how no, it should be the soldier's boots being licked some of the time. There are no wars and fights about how some section of porn sucks because the hairy bears never bottom. There are no wars and fights about how some section of porn sucks because the hairy bears always bottom. Porn viewers find what they like and enjoy it, and if it doesn't exist, what they don't do is go to the porn that does exist and complain about it.

But "Sam/Dean ep. 1-200" is different, for some reason, and gets complaints and demands for the writers or the fandom as a whole to produce more Dean/Sam, implied to be some kind of moral failing as a whole if they don't.

Why is that?

[diet_poison]

I think this is the longest secret I've seen to date

[(Anonymous)]

TL;DON'T FUCKING CARE

[(Anonymous)]

as a fellow gay man:

oh my god OP, tl;dr much? I understand the frustration, but know your audience

[(Anonymous)]

Wow. I feel like I should apologize, as I was the OP of the secret about wishing more people tagged top/bottom so I could find the kind of porn I wanted.

I think you've got a lot of good Thoughts On Yaoi. I like to think I'm on your side but I don't know... I like switching fine, and I would rather stab myself than justify my smut preferences as "more in character", but realism isn't what I'm going for either. I've read some more realistic slash romance, written by Actual Real Gay Men, I would say GENERALLY that it didn't push my buttons in the same way as traditional slash fic.

[(Anonymous)]

I can appreciate this secret. I'm a bi-fella who has had significantly more boyfriends than girlfriends. Which is just how the cookie crumbled and is neither here nor there. I'm also someone who ONLY tops, because I do not enjoy being fucked. And this has actually created friction (and not the good kind) in past relationships, because it is unusual. Not unheard of, but unusual.

That said, I'm not really up in arms about the slash fandom following a rule set, because it is primarily written by straight women. And even if they are writing gay men, they're writing gay men doing what they think is hot and moreso what their brains register as normal. And by normal I mean familiar, not normal versus abnormal. I think when it comes to sexual fiction it is hard for a lot of women to not have a kind of... gentle repulsion to the idea of switching it up. Unless their guy is into getting pegged or what have you, swapping roles comes up against a wall of expectation. Straight men don't write as much (if any) gay fiction, but the uninformed tend to assume that one man in the relationship is in the 'girl' role. Because that is what they are used to.

I don't think this is like.. genetically burned into anyone's brains. A friend of mind writes a lot of slash, and it took her a long time to break out of the seme/uke bull. But she did. It just took a lot of standing on her head to see it from a different POV.

I don't know where I was going with this and I'm sure I offended someone with my wild assumptions about the female mindset. But it's my best guess as to why the top/bottom set dynamic is so consistent and enduring. That it's not necessarily parroting outdated tropes, but an understandable assigning of roles based on their own preference and expectation.

That said, yes. It would be nice to see some more variety and realism. I don't expect or prefer my own proclivities to be reflected in slash fiction.

[arcadiaego]

These are a lot of Thoughts, but I think I basically agree.

[(Anonymous)]

i think published fiction is generally better about this.

honestly i really dislike the whole uke/seme thing in general. so much of it seems rapey or like it glorified underage/older pairings. i don't like to see those things creep into other fandoms.

i know some people really like it, but i just can't see why when there are so many other options these days. japanese comics are far from the only source of gay fiction these days.

you expressed your frustrations pretty well. i would like to see more people examine whether following uke/seme rolls blindly in fandom is really healthy. not that it MUST be unhealthy - just that lots of times, it is.

I said it before: It's because they're girls.

[(Anonymous)]

I have very little interest in gay male sexuality as such.

But I do think that the insistence on being a bottom or a top with a given partner comes from writers who are some combination of young, female, cis, straight, female, and accustomed to always being in a given role if not given position. The bottom is a self-insert for someone who expects always to bottom for the man in her life.

And as a sexual fantasy, I think that's amazingly lacking. Homosexuality not only gives you a giant excuse to switch, it just seems like it would be so much better, so much richer and more fun, if you do.

Straight girl, I don't care if you never peg your boyfriend. I am weirded out if you never get on top. But I would hope you don't write lesbians as pure butch tops and pure femme bottoms--not that you would write lesbians at all. In the same way, don't write gay men as basically straight girls with dicks. OK? OK!

[(Anonymous)]

A bloo bloo bloo and/or whatever.

[(Anonymous)]

If you're experience is that more people are versatile, that's fine. My experience in gay circles, being gay myself, is that many or most people do have a preference and many people absolutely embrace "top" and "bottom" stereotypes. Live and let live.

[(Anonymous)]

I wish I still had the stamina for this level of emotion.

[(Anonymous)]

I am so sorry this is a secret, because I want to read your fic. Like really, really.

[(Anonymous)]

Obvious answer: as someone pointed out above, most slash is written by straight girls who want to play out their own sexual fantasies with double the penis.

I think there's also a lot of overlap between the appeal of this kind of aggressive top/bottom slash for straight women and the appeal of hurt/comfort (for, again, largely women, though I'd throw non-straight women in there too......the lesbians, we love to see men getting the snot beat out of them). I think it comes down to this:

For a lot of women, seeing a man in a "vulnerable" position (whether emotionally, physically, or sexually) is on some level arousing. Why exactly this is, I don't know: gender roles, yadda yadda, toxic masculinity, blah blah internalized misognyny. Whatever. The point is, a majority of women in fandom want to see their favorite dude in that vulnerable position, whatever the circumstance.

Because, you see, it's always the favorite who's the bottom, regardless of their physical characteristics, their personality, or any of the things OP pointed out as possibly related. Take, for example, the SPN fandom: obviously there's variation, no fandom is monolithic, but as a rule Samgirls insist that Sam Is a Bottom and Deangirls insist Dean is the Bottomiest Bottom Ever. The logic isn't plot, it isn't characterization, it certainly isn't sound sexual theory: it's the logic of Fave.

tl;dr: straight women eat vulnerable men like crack whether they're getting their asses reamed or their fevers cooled

[tabaqui]

I agree that rigid top/bottom 'roles' are annoying as fuck, and really irritate me. I don't like it when it's more than spelled out in a fic that one character *is* this or that, and that kind of fic/sex scene is usually pretty boring.

I love switching/vers in fic, because yeah, that feels a lot more natural and what real people would do.

[herpymcderp]

Dunno about you brOP, but the only slash I read anymore has characters that switch pretty much for any given fancy.

Mostly because I've always found it hotter, but also I guess because it mirrors my own experience more closely than the alternative.

[(Anonymous)]

I hope you're not expecting this to change anyone's opinion. It's futile. When it comes to fetishizing and inaccurately depicting homosexuality, straight people simply cannot be reasoned with, whether its slash writers or mainstream pornographers. That's just how it is. It's never going to change.

[(Anonymous)]

But I would damn sure love to see some more fic where maybe the top in the scene gets fingered while he's blown, or maybe rimmed, or maybe they start out with the intention of one character bottoming but suddenly he's just in the mood to fuck his lover instead and turns the tables. Or maybe they both finger fuck one another to orgasm while frottage is going on. Or even a simple reference to past bottoming or topping for the top/bottom in the current scene.

I completely agree with this. As much as I love seeing buttsex in fic, I wish there was more fic with other stuff too.

As for the rest of the secret, as you can see OP, your experiences are different from other peoples' experiences. I guess we all just can't get what we want.

[(Anonymous)]

I've never had much of a preference for who tops or bottoms in any slash ship I've remotely been into. It's not so much that I prefer to see the characters switch as it's that I don't really care who sticks what where as long as my OTP gets together and smut happens. That said, I appreciate it if the fandom in general has some variety in its slash porn - not just in terms of topping/bottoming, but in terms of sex acts in general - because the same things happening over and over in exactly the same way gets boring (see also: a great deal of mainstream filmed het porn).

So, on the one hand, I'll generally read whatever and don't care if a particular author has a strict preference.

On the other hand, what really get me is when people fight over who tops and who bottoms and you get a ship war between fans of the same pairing and sometimes people start coming up with all this imaginary shit about how the people who prefer the "wrong" character as a top are pedophiles or advocate abuse or something and I become thoroughly embarrassed to be associated with the ship at all - or even the entire fandom. Meanwhile, this is all over two characters who have most likely expressed exactly zero anal sex preferences in canon. I can kind of understand having a preference in the sense that everyone has some preferences in sex and porn, but I can't identify with being so invested in it that it becomes worth fighting over and name calling and I just find the whole thing bewildering. I don't judge people for having preferences, but it's having a strong preference and no flexibility that leads to this kind of ship war nonsense.

I also get annoyed with seme/uke dynamics in general and hate when it makes authors do things like grossly exaggerate height/size differences in characters from live-action fandoms or write the characters as completely OOC outside the bedroom. I just want to read about hot dudes fucking and talking about their feelings while remaining in character. Is that too much to ask?

[(Anonymous)]

But I would damn sure love to see some more fic where maybe the top in the scene gets fingered while he's blown, or maybe rimmed, or maybe they start out with the intention of one character bottoming but suddenly he's just in the mood to fuck his lover instead and turns the tables. Or maybe they both finger fuck one another to orgasm while frottage is going on. Or even a simple reference to past bottoming or topping for the top/bottom in the current scene.

I've seen all of this, and I hate it, because it only shows up in fics where the fandom popular top/bottom is A/B but this fic is B/A. I already can't find much B/A, and now people feel the need to shove this "ha ha, just kidding, A would NEVER be an exclusive bottom!" shit in there? Fuck off.

[(Anonymous)]

Good God this secret could have used a fucking beta to tell you to stop typing.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree! Random tiny text annotations are fun!