fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #335 ]

[ SECRET POST #335 ]

⌈ Secret Post #335 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

I'm not actually around, Semagic is doing the work for me, so you guys do the name that fandom! :D

Also... the amount of not posted secrets today worries me. Perhaps some of you could do with a refresher on the rules and regulations?

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 47 secrets from Secret Submission Post #048.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken link, [ 1 2 3 4 ] not!secrets, [ 1 2 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] WTF?, [ 1 ] Teal Dear Rant Sans Secret But Amusing Enough To Make A Seperate Category For Because Of The Tattoo.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Friday, December 7th, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

36: How would you describe them being OOC? Just curious, since you seem to be knowledgeable about the canon. (No, not trying to accuse you of not knowing, just curious.)

I'm not sure if you're looking for particular threads/posts or ...? Though in reading the posts/threads I can't say that I recognize the characters. If I wasn't looking at the icons/knew who they were supposed to be I wouldn't connect them to the characters. This is where I admit I can't comment on characters like the von Neumann or Helga or other novel only characters, since the novels have just been brought over to English recently. Which was part of my question, if the players had read the novels (I may be mistaken, perhaps they have read the novels).

Despite the fact that Dietrich is a character that is both mercurial and surrounded by power he builds for himself on the suffering of others I find myself surprised by his interactions with Esther and Radu in particular. Neither Radu nor Esther struck me as coming across particularly weak (even if both are prone to moments of and/or exhibit particular weaknesses) and yet they seem to fold like paper. Which, I also admit, Dietrich is a master manipulator, but part of storytelling is overcoming and fighting against this, where nothing seems to be happening with that at all. The entire cast seems to be stuck in this sort of stagnant RCO ruled state.

There is very little of what makes the audience love these characters showing up in play. Why is Radu a wonderfully tragic an-protagonist? Why is Esther a heroine? Why is Cain more than just evilcrazy? What attempts of humanity does Dietrich go through the motions of? Why is Lilith a tragic mothergoddess? Why does Abel make people like him? How is Seth portrayed as flawless and full of faults? The little quirks seem glossed over in vague fittings to barebones descriptions of the characters.

Different anon, I think you provide a valid argument. The von Neumanns as far as I can see are quite nicely in character, from what I have read of the novels in their original language.

As for the Dietrich/Radu/Esther thing in the game itself, I'm going to have to agree. There seems to be no allowance on the part of the players to help them grow out of their state of submission, or even doubt or fight. Perhaps ICly there's been establishment to cause it, but I haven't been around too long to really say.

Cain and Seth I can't really comment on, as they post very rarely. Isaak seems to be fine as well, apart from the strange bouts of sexualizing of his wiseman nature, which I suppose is another IC-ly agreed thing.

Thank you for saying von Neumanns are alright. I was iffy to play Kaspar myself (because of a second member Orden, I wanted to apply for Petros, but--). It's good to hear this. I wish Balthasar and Melchior would post more so I can have Kaspar interact with someone other than Radu or Helga or Isaak. ._. I want crazy sibling bonding.

As for the Dietrich/Radu/Esther thing in the game itself, I'm going to have to agree. There seems to be no allowance on the part of the players to help them grow out of their state of submission, or even doubt or fight. Perhaps ICly there's been establishment to cause it, but I haven't been around too long to really say.

There is, actually, see my explanation below. (http://community.livejournal.com/fandomsecrets/105718.html?thread=23799798#t23799798) Dietrich worked his ass for months to have his puppets back and Radu's getting rebellious again. If there is ANY specific complain about Dietrich (or Kaspar or Lilith), please tell me, I trust you more as source because you're a fellow novel reader. I made an analysis here (http://sir-hellsing.livejournal.com/356428.html) a while ago.

"The entire cast seems to be stuck in this sort of stagnant RCO ruled state."

Thank you. That’s exactly what’s wrong with it that I could never put into words.

Word. I think it's because the AX cast is virtually nonexistent and really does nothing either. (Don't even let me start on the Caterina and her droning state in that game.)

That may be because in the novels she eventually even joins RCO.

Different anon popping in! But even though she joins the RCO she doesn't lose her steel nor does she seem to lose her purpose -- in fact she's the one who ungrounds Dietrich in the end.

As the player of Dietrich, Lilith and Kaspar who actually HAS the novels (including Canon) and KNOWS Japanese (what I didn't know how to translate, consulted someone), I'm going to reply you.

Dietrich's not mercurial. He's a complete fake. His even "real" personality isn't real. He builds his acts, even his smooth manipulater is ALL AN ACT. He betrays Cain in the end, after destroying the Vatican and triggering Seth's death/sacrifice. He is also... an idealist, evil but naïve in thinking the Orden matters and willl change the world.

Now to reply this since I believe you are new to the game or not really paying attention what happened months ago:

Neither Radu nor Esther struck me as coming across particularly weak (even if both are prone to moments of and/or exhibit particular weaknesses) and yet they seem to fold like paper. Which, I also admit, Dietrich is a master manipulator, but part of storytelling is overcoming and fighting against this, where nothing seems to be happening with that at all. The entire cast seems to be stuck in this sort of stagnant RCO ruled state.

You are right to guess:

Dietrich manipulated them. Tell you how: he made Radu think HE brought him back and used his own denial of being death, promise him to be WORTH something when they return to have his pet. Pet that defied and escaped him months ago. What did Dietrich do? Set a serial killer stalker that left remains of vampires to Radu each night. Then Radu faced the judgment from the Red God for his sins that crippled him emotionally until Dietrich swept off as savior to him.

That's exactly why Radu has been tolerant. He saw Dietrich as his ONLY tricket to success. His only anchor. Now, he's starting to see through his lies and WILL run away again. Radu mun and I have plotted for months and what will come.

Radu's not a nice person, novel wise, he's childish, immature (Ion, as contrast, was more man like novel wise), and was gleeful at the idea to kill Ion. He hates to be controlled but at the same time is afraid to HAVE control. He's a nutcase, pretty much and a masochist: he is relieved to see Dietrich even if he's scared of him. Also... he's a touch attracted by his looks.

Esther... She's fresh out ROM I. There's no growth to be heroine and slowly she's been reverting to her terrorist days. Dietrich discovered she was going to be Queen through a curse day and has invested time in luring her to the dark side. It isn't hard when Caterina's jealousy (ROM IV and then in Canon, she's perfectly willing to set Esther as martyr due to her feelings for Abel), Tres' indiference, Abel didn't even KNOW her when he arrived, and now Francesco's want to kill her (also in Canon, he wanted her DEAD) lured her more and more to Dietrich's lies and arms. He has been behaving as Prince Charming. For a purpose.

Now Dietrich is enlisting Radu to help him in setting Esther against the Empire.

Why is Lilith a tragic mothergoddess?

Uh what?

Lilith wasn't a mother. She was ONLY Abel's lover, novel wise, she was the doctor of the team and fiercest enemy of the Night Lords. She led armies and thought Cain and Seth had no human heart and was ready to kill THEM. She was in love with Abel and ONLY gave him a chance to change (see Iblis message that is very different in the novel). In the game, as I play Llilith, she's obviously confused with Cain's new personality (which is also... canon, he's quite immature in his private displays. He plays with his food in ROM V, throwing fish and making a fuss), like Seth's and Abel's. They aren't nothing alike the ones she knew. She returned to be a nurturing doctor as she was in Once Upon Mars 'cause... there's no armies to lead, no genocide to stop, besides is the perfect cover to gather information and figure out WHAT to do. And if she has the right to change the future.

I hope that helps to give you insight.

It does! As I stated in the secret (or meant to) I've only read the manga and seen the anime and then read the few novels that have been translated into English. So my impressions of the characters are solely based off of those observations.

I am curious on Esther, however, since from the impression given in the novel of her terrorist days she's a strong person then. Even with her weakness and being usurped by Dietrich's betrayal in a way she's still not 'weak'. She charged Gyula with a knife.

Mercurial was probably the wrong word choice there, I will admit to that.

Now, I guess, the question I have to ask is why pull these characters from those timeplaces? They are inherently setting up the characters/play for the stagnant RCO ruled form, which is odd. Not only odd but it seems like it severely hampers both character growth and play (I can't actually speak on that, not being a player, but it definitely causes some frowns on wondering just how the players deal with it).

I have no idea how to answer the comments on Radu, honestly. I can't speak for his novel personality at all, but if I had to guess from what you've said and what I've seen of his play... he's a completely dependent, weak individual who is easily wooed by both looks and sex. Which, I guess, is not impossible, though I expected more from seeing him in the manga.

And since you've read the novels, could you confirm or deny what the other anon has said about Caterina in the RCO and then the thing about her 'ungrounding' Dietrich?

"'ungrounding' Dietrich?"

They meant 'undermining'.

Glad I could be of help. Please, I'm someone who seeks constant improvement and I'd have enjoyed you to critize those I play in the driving threads.

Dietrich's NOT someone easy to play, let me tell you this, it took a month until I was sure of his voice and more to figure out what he'll do in a place he has NO mission. And I have seen him ruined in so many rps, making him some slut, Dietrich's provokative and a tease, but he's not a fandom bycicle. He's so smart, manipulative but often SO... how to say, random? He does things for his cause, his enjoyment and, most importantly, his survival. Critize all you want. Lilith and Kaspar, as there's not SO much canon for them, are far easier to move.

I have no idea how to answer the comments on Radu, honestly. I can't speak for his novel personality at all, but if I had to guess from what you've said and what I've seen of his play... he's a completely dependent, weak individual who is easily wooed by both looks and sex. Which, I guess, is not impossible, though I expected more from seeing him in the manga.

Radu is weak. Actually. That's a trait of his character. He fails to be a proper human being. Most Radus I have seen.... well redeemed him which is just not suit me well, interpretation wise. He can feel doubts and such but he was STILL giddy to kill, he was STILL glad to see Dietrich, etc. Dietrich, novel wise, saved him from being vored by Abel, too. He relies so much more on the Puppet Master and comes off as immature to Dietrich's and Ion's level. Radu's just 18. With a consuming jealousy and desire to prove himself to someone. He's a rebellious teenager. The nightmare of every mother: nazi, drug addict (illegal, Empire wise), ~~gay~~ and hates the mother authority.

The whole Radu attracted to Dietrich is VERY recent. After a couple of curse days past months and was worked with to have a plot point because he's growing rebellious (http://flammenschwert.livejournal.com/22948.html) again. Last time, Dietrich brought him back with fear, intimidating and Stockolm Syndrome. Now he'll use his ability to milk his desire for him (we're in due to speak with Desire mun to help).

I suggest you to look back in his journal and see what he did: not aiding Dietrich when alcohol poisoning or hiding for his wrath. He even told Greed about the Orden and Dietrich's powers which is a NO NO. He got punished badly and faced a mental/emotional judgment that made him CHOSE and made up his mind by the people of Silent Hill: that's exactly why he has been more Orden faithful, because of THIS. He ran away twice. The problem is that he's an Imperial. All Imperials are sort of REALLY dependent with inability to grow. Seth sucks in mothering. They were product of a society of favoritism and cripled mother isues that can't function without their superior/goddess. He WOULD like to be independant (as he showed in the past), but sadly, he just... cannot. Upbringing and all that. Herit should answer this better than I do. She's Radu/Shahrzad/Francesco player and one of the administrators of the TB forum, a walking Encyclopedia of the series and knows her characterization. Really.

I am curious on Esther, however, since from the impression given in the novel of her terrorist days she's a strong person then. Even with her weakness and being usurped by Dietrich's betrayal in a way she's still not 'weak'. She charged Gyula with a knife.

I think the problem is more with inactivity. But she's a strong person, the problem is she's ALSO one who cared for Dietrich a lot and he has been show to be her support in the City. She has been ALONE if wasn't for Dietrich. While the Vatican shunned her. She feels, IMO, betrayed. Kaga should explain you this. Now there's an upcoming development with her meeting with Shahrzad (who pretty much is the whole reason why Esther set on a mission to change the world in ROM IV to honor her sacrifice).

We're all waiting for that and how will impact on Dietrich's plans and spice them >D

I know I have been posting sporadically, but that is because I have been so busy with deadlines since it is near the end of the year. I am hoping to fix that on December, but... work has been eating me alive. There is no point in me updating or plotting if I know I will be leaving people hanging. But I will be more active after this faggotry is over. But yes, plot is in plan.

Like what Lore has explained, Esther feels as if she is abandoned. She is taken from ROM I. Why so? It is not because this is helping RCO, it is because when I first took her on, I was nervous and worried about playing her. When I took her, the only AX in the rp was Caterina and Tres. As Caterina was taken from when she resented Esther, she left her alone in a world she has no idea about and gave orders to Tres to do the same. She felt abandoned and hurt and Dietrich was the only person who took her in. She may be betrayed by him, but she doesn't hate him. She wants to know his reasons.

Then Abel came in. He was taken pre-Istvan and he doesn't know her. The only person she thought she knew was an ally... did not know her. Any normal person would be crushed. The only time he and Caterina spoke to her was when they found out that she would be a future Queen, but then, it was already kinda late. One, she thinks that they only wanted to get on her good side because of the fact and two, for a terrorist leader who was brought up by a Bishop, being a Queen is something out of a fairytale - something unbelievable. The Abel was updated later, but the damage was already done.

Then when she thought Francesco was a nice person and wanted to thank him for being nice to her on a curse day, he returned after Alessandro's death in their world... and quite obviously hate the very sight of her. So, no friend there either.

Recently, she has been speaking to Abel again and is slowly warming back up to him. And with Shahrzad's entrance, who knows what would happen? Esther may be staying with Dietrich, but that doesn't mean she trusts him fully. There is still always some doubt.

And again, I am sorry. More to my crew than anyone else about my inactivity.

Dur, I love how you play your characters.

Esther's someone who CAN change. That's her greatest trait, IMO. And the circumstances dictate what and how she should change. I thought her reaction was perfectly realistic.

But I want moar. I am waiting the Shahrzad&Esther meeting and Dietrich&Radu explaining her about the Empire. >D

Now, I guess, the question I have to ask is why pull these characters from those timeplaces? They are inherently setting up the characters/play for the stagnant RCO ruled form, which is odd. Not only odd but it seems like it severely hampers both character growth and play (I can't actually speak on that, not being a player, but it definitely causes some frowns on wondering just how the players deal with it).

No, we simply chose from where to take the characters. Some people updated them (Francesco's case). Abel was updated too... and restarted. Ion was updated. As did Asta. Lilith HAS her nanos, so she is the strongest of them (but no one really TELLS her of the RCO, she's headdesking at the Vatican and the Empire phail atm and probably WILL AGREE they need to go as countries for the order be restored. >_> Lilith's not an angelic pacifist, she crushed armies, set on deadly weapons and was the best war leader, but it took genocide to have her leave of her healer/doctor role).

It isn't that there's RCO favor is that the RCO IS more powerful individually (they kind of WON in Canon? RCO no Cain. Cain wants destruction. RCO wants to cause a war between Vatican and the Empire, which is a clever political move: destroy old nations together, set their own as more powerful. Most members of the Orden ARE from Germanicus ;P Geeee... I wonder why they are resentful of the Empire and the Vatican) and they have larger cast members. Hell to take down RADU (who is epic phail), you needed Ion/sunlight/Petros/Tres AND Radu choosing to die. And that's just Radu. The immature, childish 18 years old Imperial baby. :/ If you feel is unfair, do apply for Ax/Inquisition or Empire. I WANT moar people on their side. I even complated apply for Petros but I already play THREE TB characters.

And since you've read the novels, could you confirm or deny what the other anon has said about Caterina in the RCO and then the thing about her 'ungrounding' Dietrich?

She starts a mental warfare with Dietrich when he's having paranoia issues against Cain (Dietrich's a person who suffered his own family attempting to MURDER him at 6, so yeah, paranoia ahoy) and his worth to him. So she turns him against Cain but he's still very faithful to the Orden ideals. He just wants Cain's dead and out the picture. Considering Dietrich can control the Arc II where the last fight was supposed to take place (Cain vs Abel), he has serious part to play on good guys's victory (however... we don't know 'cause author DIED on us before finishing the novels. Woe). However, I am playing Dietrich fresh out ROM III when he is still... loyal.

I MAY update this in the future but not now with ongoing plots with him involved. He's already having issues after curse days showed him how would have been if he had loving parents and acceptance of his genius. It's getting him. Rosiel's influence is too impacting him. Rosiel's so much like Cain that makes him have... loyalties issues.

Dietrich follows those he considers his superiors. This isn't out of love or loyalty but admiration and survival >_>

Something else you want to ask? :)

I have a lot I'd like to say, but I think I need time to organize my thoughts. My only first response though is "...I don't really want to read the novels now."

I thank you for replying, though I can't quite shake the feeling that the entire Trinity Blood cast seems to have been set up in a way. Not that it's necessarily "horriblewrong" but certainly leaves an odd taste in my mouth.

The earlier English novels at least, edited by a native English-speaker are a crime against grammar, syntax and Google as a means to search for the fecking obvious. I’ve seen better grammatical structure in outdated English textbooks in German high schools.

Tokyopop. Herit told me the German ones are really dead on in translation.

I am buying the Spanish ones to make my collection grow. >_> I was going to buy them in English, but after hearing SO many negative reviews and given excerpts. Er. No thanks. People who can't translate ranks correctly isn't worth my money. >.> ~~Asta's not a Duchess.~~

That editor has recently left the company so things may show some improvement soon.

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Long reply is long. First part

Short explanation is short... and probably not perfect since I basically summarized everything. >:

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Different McAnon Strikes Again

Re: Different McAnon Strikes Again

BK Anon here

Re: BK Anon here

(frozen comment) Arby's anon has a ps

(frozen comment) (no subject)

(frozen comment) WENDY'S ANON

(frozen comment) Re: WENDY'S ANON

(frozen comment) Wendy's anon strikes back!

(frozen comment) Re: Wendy's anon strikes back!

(frozen comment) Re: Wendy's anon strikes back!

(frozen comment) Re: Wendy's anon strikes back!

(frozen comment) DOING WHAT TASTES RIGHT

(frozen comment) Re: DOING WHAT TASTES RIGHT