[ SECRET POST #2185 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2185 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]


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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 034 secrets from Secret Submission Post #312.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fauxkaren]

I don't get why people see it as whiny either tbh. Ten established earlier that he feels like regeneration is a kind of death. And he didn't want to die. But then he did to save Wilf? IDK. I never understood why people hated it so much.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh is that the scene?

Well, I didn't find him whiny, but I felt like he was a complete asshole to Wilf. Here's Wilf, ready to die a final death, to sacrifice his life for the Doctor, and the Doctor is just sitting and screaming about Wilf should go, because he's more important blah blah. And all I can think is 'You have two more regenerations. You're a complete ass.'

It doesn't help that prior to this he was crying over the Master's body. I really hated all the attention and care he gave to the Master. How he wanted to keep him alive, even though this guy is established as extremely dangerous and fucking COMMITTED GENOCIDE ON THE HUMAN RACE not too long ago. But, oh no, Doctor needs a friend.

Ten was so full of himself it's not even funny. Constantly stomping around telling everyone he did what was best, they didn't deserve to have a say, Earth was his to command, etc. I like Eleven a lot more for being more caring in that sense and less controlling.

[fauxkaren]

Yeah, Ten was being kind of a dick, but in the end, he still chose to die so that Wilf could live, so he's allowed to angst about it a bit, imo. He still chose to do the right thing in the end.

And the stuff with the Master is more complicated than that? It's not just about the Doctor needing a friend. The loss of Gallifrey were shadows that hung over Nine and Ten and the Master was a part of that? Ten had previously wanted to believe that the Master could be redeemed and he didn't want to let go of the last bit of Gallifrey that he had.

Wait. What? Eleven is less controlling re: Earth? Did you not watch the opening two parter of series 6??? He brainwashed humanity to kill the Silence. That's pretty controlling imo.

[(Anonymous)]

Wait. What? Eleven is less controlling re: Earth? Did you not watch the opening two parter of series 6??? He brainwashed humanity to kill the Silence. That's pretty controlling imo.

Well, he tricked the Silence into brainwashing humanity. But I think this is less controlling than what Ten was capable of, which was to control people against their spoken wishes, and to declare himself in the right of things he shouldn't have been controlling in the first place.

[(Anonymous)]

I think what they meant was that Eleven wasn't controlling about the little things. When humanity was kinda being enslaved by aliens they couldn't remember seeing, yeah, sure, he was controlling. But he didn't butt into everything and tell everyone how to live their lives as often as Ten did. Of course he did do that sometimes -- I mean, he IS the Doctor, and a Doctor who isn't kind of an condescending arrogant jerk is a Doctor who's just plain doing it wrong or fooling himself, but Eleven -- and Nine -- didn't jabber on about how good and wonderful and morally righteous the scary shit they did was. They were pretty much open about how "yeah, sorry, it was either this shitty scenario or a more shitty scenario. *shrugs*"

I don't think that made Eleven or Nine necessarily better than Ten though. Less irritating maybe, but I think Ten was acutely aware of, and bothered by, the fact that he had to do so much scary shit to achieve good outcomes like keeping innocent people safe and defeating evil villains, and tried to justify it by trying to talk a big game about how what he was doing was awesome, really, to convince himself he was a good person who was doing good things, not a monster.

Which is a problematic way of doing things (see: Waters of Mars) but at the same time I understand and sympathize with how he saw it. I think Eleven's bluntness about how making the "best" choice can still be pretty damn shitty (see: The Beast Below) was kind of a backlash against Ten's excesses of self-justification, similar the way Ten's idealism and zealousness about acting like a "good" guy and being justified in his actions grew out of a lot of Nine's jadedness and cynicism and self-hatred over the Time War.

And anyway, even Ten wasn't as controlling about the little things as Seven. Or Eight, who was the one who kinda killed all the Daleks and Time Lords. Methinks the people who bash Ten for being sooooooo controlling are missing a bit of perspective.

[(Anonymous)]

"yeah, sorry, it was either this shitty scenario or a more shitty scenario."

hit the nail on the head why I hate NuWho with a passion tbqh

[(Anonymous)]

I can't believe there are people who actually think that the doctor MEANT those word's he said to Wilf. He didn't and that was the point!
he explained that regenerations were like death to him and he was the most human doctor. Death is what humans are most afraid of. We needed a doctor like that.

then he did it, he survived, he MADE it and then there are the four knocks and he understands that it has to happen anyway. he DID a lot for the world (no matter what regeneration, you can't just talk about ten) and he was angry with the world because it didn't give anything back. It just stole his companions and relied on him.
WHO wouldn't be angry and hurt? Didn't he deserve a reward? (he understood afterwards that he had to get his reward himself, like he has to do everything else himself, too.)

concerning The Master: they both committed genocide. They're not that different in some parts...and in the other parts... the doctor hoped that there was still hope for The Master, too.

I think the problem is that Ten had a soul and some who watched him and comment here, clearly don't..

[(Anonymous)]

I know he didn't mean it.

It doesn't matter.

It shouldn't have been said.

He KNOWS he would continue to live.

Wilf was going to die, and Wilf offered to sacrifice himself. It was disgusting for such an immortal, knowledgeable being to take a few kicks at Wilf to make himself feel better.

As far as not getting a reward--are you joking? Ten is pretty stuck up in this way, but he has a fucking time machine and literally anything anyone could want. He's constantly making the dearest of friends, the closest of companions, whole species worship him. He's just not satisfied with them, and that's fine. But in an objective sense, he HAS been rewarded. The TARDIS is the biggest reward anyone could ask for.

concerning The Master: they both committed genocide. They're not that different in some parts...and in the other parts... the doctor hoped that there was still hope for The Master, too.

The Doctor, at least, committed genocide to save many other lives. No one considers this a bad thing. The Master is just evil and kills people for no good reason. It's perfectly rational to not blame the Doctor, and to blame the Master. But the Doctor was supremely selfish to try and keep the Master around.

[wldcatsprstr_14]

Wilf was going to die, and Wilf offered to sacrifice himself. It was disgusting for such an immortal, knowledgeable being to take a few kicks at Wilf to make himself feel better.

Maybe that's why Wilf could make that sacrifice. Because his death would be final. No remembering who he was or what he did or what he used to be like.
No getting used to a new body, new voice, new face.

Ten already showed how much he didn't like the idea of waking up suddenly changed one day. Even though the Doctor is something of an immortal, his incarnations still 'die.' Ten would never be Ten again. I don't really think I can fault Ten for wanting to stay Ten. Hearing 'well you'll wake up tomorrow and you'll technically be the same person but also completely different from who you are now' wouldn't really make me OK with dying today, especially if I'd already experienced that before and decided I didn't like it.

[(Anonymous)]

I always thought it was pretty clear that Ten said those words in a sarcastic way. and I always believed that Wilf knew that and wouldn't EVER blame him for that.

he would live, yes, but not like before. Dying is still dying!
He ISN'T immortal. There is still a chance of ACTUALLY dying before the regeneration works. you should know that. and it is his right to fear that.

And about the reward thing: NOW you really want to make him human. in everything. but he isn't. he is from another planet and he grew up with all the talks about time and space and even the TARDIS is a normal device from where he comes from. It's nothing special there... just like regenerations. how can you say that's his reward? It's not a REWARD it's everything he has LEFT.

Killing is killing. No matter for what reason. and I'm sure Ten thought, if there is hope for The Master then there is hope for himself, too. He didn't forgive himself for that yet, even if it was the right decision. It's not that easy.

at last, I'll just copy what I said in my own comment:

This regeneration was unlike others. It didn't happen out of a moment. he had to prepare for it. He KNEW it was coming. (And Eleven learnt from that, when he faced the astronaut.)

I can't believe there are people who pick their favourite regeneration... It's always the doctor. And whatever changed him in his new generation is the result of what happened before.

[(Anonymous)]

"The Master is just evil and kills people for no good reason."

The earlier regenerations of the Master had waaaay more depth than Ten!Master did. The whole "eye of Harmony" thing notwithstanding.

[(Anonymous)]

I know he didn't mean it.
It doesn't matter.
It shouldn't have been said.
He KNOWS he would continue to live.

In other news, people sometimes say hurtful things they don't mean when they're tired, scared, and frustrated. Even if they regret it or shortly after explicitly take it back by word or deed, they're still ridiculously awful people!

[(Anonymous)]

"We needed a doctor like that."

WHY

If I wanted to watch Corrie instead of plugging my ears and holding my nose when it's on, I'd watch Corrie, woudn't I?

[wldcatsprstr_14]

Ten was so full of himself it's not even funny. Constantly stomping around telling everyone he did what was best, they didn't deserve to have a say, Earth was his to command, etc. I like Eleven a lot more for being more caring in that sense and less controlling.

LOL @ this. Nine AND Eleven both do this as well. Ten was just the most up front about it. And I kinda prefer that approach than Nine and Ten pretending they don't think they're the shit and that humans are oh-so Important. All three are arrogant, boastful, controlling jerks in their own way; Ten just didn't make you dig so deep to see it. And this is from someone who considers Nine her Doctor.

[kamino_neko]

this guy is established as extremely dangerous and fucking COMMITTED GENOCIDE ON THE HUMAN RACE not too long ago.

The Doctor himself committed genocide (or at least attempted to with about as much success as the Master's attempted genocide against humans) against both Galifrey and the Daleks, so it's not like his moral high ground is all that firm.

[(Anonymous)]

The Doctor himself committed genocide (or at least attempted to with about as much success as the Master's attempted genocide against humans) against both Galifrey and the Daleks, so it's not like his moral high ground is all that firm.

It's totally firm, and I'm boggled when people use this excuse. He commits genocide on species who are trying to commit genocide on other species. Species who are trying to kill others to keep themselves alive. No matter what, you can argue that the Doctor always did it for the greater good in an objective sense.

The Master was just murdering the shit out of people for fun. The Doctor also saved the universe, galaxy, solar system, planet, etc so many times he's better off alive to the whole universe. The Master just destroyed.

[kamino_neko]

you can argue that the Doctor always did it for the greater good in an objective sense.

An argument that the Doctor himself was wise enough to reject. He knew he had committed a cosmic scale atrocity, and has spent his last 3 regenerations atoning. 'Everybody lives, Rose. Just this once, everybody lives.' 'I am not a good man.'

Is the Doctor a better man than the Master? Most certainly.

But a significant part of what makes him better is recognizing that his hands aren't clean, and never, ever attempting to justify evil acts.

[intrigueing]

Uh...well, not really. "kill a bunch of people to save the entire universe" =/= "kill a bunch of people for shits and giggles".

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you! It's really bizarre people keep bringing this up. Like...do you not see the difference between a psychopath and a regretful, say, police officer? The Doctor doesn't go around looking for people to kill.

[(Anonymous)]

Genocide stops being genocide when there are reasons behind it.

I see.

[intrigueing]

Because it was really insensitive and self-indulgent to do it in front of Wilf and make him feel like crap and a big burden for y'know, daring to be in danger saving a guy's life. He didn't do it to fuck with the Doctor, and it wasn't about the Doctor. What most people think is "either save Wilf or don't, but don't whine about how it's all about you". Personally, I disagree with that. I thought the rant taken all on its own wasn't too terrible. It was actually pretty understandable that he might crack and show frustration and anger and fear for a moment there. It was the context behind it and the way he behaved after it, that it was "like death" and a big horrible end-of-the-world deal, and that his angst about it was super-duper important and him kicking up such a fuss about it was totally justified rather than being a rather silly moment of weakness, that pissed me off.

Not to mention, the part where he "established earlier that he felt like it was a kind of death" was pretty damn enraging and completely inconsistent with how the Doctor has always viewed regeneration, and that's not something that can be handwaved off as "but this is New Who" because Nine went out kind of scared, a bit sad, but ultimately with no regrets and hopeful about the future -- "I just want to say Rose, you were brilliant. And you know what? So was I!" I could definitely understand Ten being more scared and sad than Nine was, seeing as he didn't know Wilf as well as Rose, and given Ten had a much more emotional personality and was in a much worse place in his life, but a completely inconsistent 180 turnaround is not the same as a minor difference in how he approached it. Yes, he's Ten, not Nine or Eight or any of his previous regenerations, but ultimately, and more importantly, he's still the Doctor, and that part of him is the same throughout and should provide some consistency and continuity.

Contrasty to the anon above me, I actually really, really loved Ten. I just hated the way his arc ended on such a depressing and negative note instead of letting him overcome his issues and get a satisfying ending out of his character arc.

[(Anonymous)]

I am that anon, and I really didn't hate Ten. His personality, when viewed in a real-world sense, was okay to me. I liked him tons sometimes, couldn't stand him others. But what REALLY got me is how Russel T Davies portrayed him. It wasn't that he was controlling/whiny/insensitive, it was that he was controlling/whiny/insensitive and always right. I got this sense that Davies wanted us to see the Doctor as a sort of human god who almost never erred and always knew what was best. This really annoyed me.

I think my favorite moment is when Harriet Jones (Prime Minister) announced she still believed herself to be correct for installing the Torchwood weaponry, despite Ten having destroyed her regime (which was one of my least favorite moments).

But I agree with most of what you have to say. I mean, I completely understand feeling scared and upset. His personality was going to be mostly erased. It's pretty scary. But he's gone through it nine times, and he took it out on Wilf, and it was a bit infuriating from the perspective of someone who WILL die and will finally die and will only live 80-or-so years.

[wldcatsprstr_14]

I got this sense that Davies wanted us to see the Doctor as a sort of human god who almost never erred and always knew what was best. This really annoyed me.

Really? I felt like Ten was the Doctor who was wrong, and called on it, more than any of the NuWho Doctors. And this is even before his god complex kicks into overdrive. So I just don't understand this reading of him. He was almost always being chastised for being a know-it-all controlling ass.

[inkmage]

Harriet Jones (Prime Minister)

We know who she is.

[othellia]

I think my favorite moment is when Harriet Jones (Prime Minister) announced she still believed herself to be correct for installing the Torchwood weaponry, despite Ten having destroyed her regime (which was one of my least favorite moments).

Ugh, yes. Especially knowing that after Harriet Jones, Harold Saxon and the guy in Children of Earth soon followed. Like all of Children of Earth is one a giant pro-Harriet/Torchwood campaign for why the earth needs legit defenses for when the Doctor's not there.

It's one of my least favorite moments as well, if not the least favorite.