[ SECRET POST #1986 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1986 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 119 secrets from Secret Submission Post #284.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0- not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 - going to have to be a little more subtle than this ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

05. http://i.imgur.com/TXxUF.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

This x 100%

[(Anonymous)]

people also seem to ignore the fact that dean is so god damn straight it hurts

so yes the chance of them being canon if cass where a girl are upped significantly if it weren't for the fact she probably would've died a horrible death

[(Anonymous)]

Tbh, I have to agree.

[les_lenne]

Theoretically, from my understanding, he could slip into a female human's body for an episode or two -- "problem" solved.

The following SJ wank would be hilarious.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS IS SO TRUE!

Even when the Supernatural writers add well developed female characters, all the fans HATE them. Seriously, the fact that so many fans think fem!Castiel would be accepted is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

And seriously, most of the misogyny in the Supernatural fandom is committed by female fans. What the heck, girls?

[(Anonymous)]

Seriously. Even Misha admits this.

I love the show, but it's got mad gender, race and other issues. I'm still not quite over the episode where Ellen and Jo died and, in the same episode, we see Castiel literally throw a female demon down in a circle of fire and walk across her back to get to safety. I don't object to female demons, but that one couldn't have been male? TO have those two things in one episode just felt like an ugly "Fuck you, ladies."

[sai_salamander]

It still makes me sad that the general assumption is that all SPN fans hate the women characters ): Bela, Jo, Ellen, Ruby, Lilith, all some of my favourites, and I know more people in my little bit of fandom who love the bamf!ladies than those who hate on them.

Maybe I'm just too used to being in the "minor characters" side of fandom haha. I'll stick to my Crowley-fangirls thanks.

[majorshipper]

Pretty much. But the fans who are like that tend to be less aware of...well...everything.

Though I don't think fandom is as misogynist as it used to be (I think a lot of those fans left), and I kinds resent the suggestion that EVERYONE in fandom is a misogynist. I mean, if you ONLY look at the anon comms, yeah, you'll see a ton of BS, but that's common to any fandom. SPN's just developed a reputation that it's never shaken, and the writers are hesitant to write in females because they're once a billion times bitten and twice shy. From what I recall, when they brought Jo back, it was well-recieved. Meg is very popular in my corner of fandom, as are the departed female characters. So, idk. But I do think that if Cas had been introduced as a woman in S4 then, yes, he very much would have been gone as soon as his purpose was served. As for now? I think women would be better received, so long as they were well-written and NOT shitty caricatures. But I'm not so sure SPN writers can handle that task, with men OR women.

/feels

So this is my dissertation on this

[meadowphoenix]

I don't know if I agree with you completely, perhaps because you're being hyperbolic.

First I think you mean women who are reoccurring, since a lot of the ones who were part of a case are still alive. Cassie and Sarah are still alive and while feelings on Cassie are mixed (not I think because she was a woman, because she broke Dean's heart a little), Sarah is loved. Amy isn't hated, since she seemed like a really good friend for Sam.

For reoccurring characters, I know Meg and Sheriff Mills are still alive and kicking (well, I hope Meg is, but I honestly can't see them letting Crowley kill her off-screen) and loved, even though Meg is evil. I know neither Ruby nor Lilith nor Ellen nor Anna (I've seen very little hate on Anna, but I have seen that she comprises one half of most of the femslash. Where are you going in fandom?) were killed off because people hated them. Ruby, Lilith, and Anna weren't fridged. They were killed for plot purposes exclusively and didn't have a bolstering effect on the boys at all. Ellen especially is loved (Bobby/Ellen shippers exist, they just don't write fic), but I will agree she was fridged. People loved Pamela and were really sorry to her go, where I lurked. Tessa is flawless and I have seen no hate shown her way. Neither Lenore nor Elanor were hated. Ava went crazy and people still like Ava. People also want more backstory on Gwen, despite loathing the Campbells. You really seem to be simplifying a far more complicated situation.

I agree that Jo, Bela, Lisa, and Becky got mixed reactions, and I agree it was because of the way that they interacted with the boys whether romantically (in Lisa and Jo) or intellectually (Bela). Becky was fun as the ultimate self-insert until she turned rapey, and therefore is in another category. I do think that Jo and Bela got a ton of hate that seemed to stem from the fact that they interacted in any way with Dean. Jo particularly didn't make any sense, since she was flirtatious maybe twice and was in like 5 episodes. Bela was just far more intelligent than them and hard to classify as a good or bad person, which actually does affect feeling on a character, but I do think much of the hate was unwarranted. Lisa's romance with Dean is the least developed romance with a totally kickass person and Dean ever. A lot of the disgruntlement with her character was that it was hard to see if Dean was ever invested. Some is it is the same over-protectiveness with Dean that occurred with Jo and Bela and did seem rooted in misogyny. Some of it was the fact that the writers didn't really seem to know what to do with Dean and Lisa's relationship once the boys were back together. Some of it was that Lisa rightfully called Sam and Dean's relationship fucked up under a truth spell. The reaction to Lisa was legitimately mixed.

Female Cas would be just fine with fans if she was helpful (unlike Bela) and shot down every attempt Dean made at romance. If the romantic tension built from there, since there's really only Sam to ship Dean with otherwise, I don't think it would be an issue. But they probably still wouldn't be together because leaving romantic tension hanging is what shows do for seasons and seasons. I do think Male Cas and Female Cas would be treated differently by the writing team.

So basically if your friends hated these characters for ridiculous reasons, they might possibly be in the minority, especially now, and they suck.

[(Anonymous)]

In response to the last line: Yes.

Overall? Eff off, we've had to watch too many uncomfortable sex scenes involving women, if we can get over it you can get over our slash, which isn't forced on you btw.

[elaminator]

(Again, I'm a bit behind and haven't been in SPN fandom in years, but) ...Yea, most likely. Which is sad for so many reasons, probably the least of which being that the show has had some pretty neat female characters, but they never last and/or get treated horribly by the show itself or fandom. But, that's not everyone of course, and you're talking about the worst 'side' of the fandom, which...is probably a good deal bigger than the sane side, but I know in my heart IT EXISTS.

Plus some people just dislike the female characters because they don't like their actions/personality/etc; it doesn't always have to be about the fact that they break up the slash.

That said, yes, of course there is some of that as well.

[gabzillaz]

Sad, but likely true. :/

[(Anonymous)]

i don't disagree that she (a female!cas) would probably have been fridged and killed in various gory ways (see: anna) and i truly love the ladies on spn and hate the treatment they get but you know what:

SHE STILL WOULD HAVE SLEPT WITH DEAN BEFORE ALL OF THAT. so yeah it would have been canon. your argument is invalid. sorry, try harder next time.

[(Anonymous)]

This reminded me of these two fills in the kinkmeme where Cas becomes/is a girl and how he eventually ends up dependent on Dean.
They were hard for me to read and I felt awful afterwards.

[astridv]

No argument there.

[(Anonymous)]

Tangentially, I've always been curious what the SJ parts of the fandom would have to say about Castiel if he did have a female vessel (and miraculously survived and had the same story). There's already some pretty blatant double standards in how the narrative treats Cas as opposed to the Winchesters. Plus, if was female her relationship (even if it wasn't canon) would have some pretty unfortunate implications.

You're Not the First to Notice

[(Anonymous)]

I think you might find this vid interesting.
http://sockkpuppett.livejournal.com/442093.html

A fanvid made by sockkpuppett and sisabet that highlights how woman are frequently cast as either victims, sexual objects, or villains in Supernatural. Uses footage from seasons 1 and 2.

[celestiel]

Oh please, if Cas was a girl Dean would've hit that three seasons ago at least; just look at Anna.

Unfortunately however, no one would actually ship it because it'd have been boring because the writers just plain suck at intentionally writing romance. It would've been the same "we're both attractive members of the opposite sex, let's fuck! (then the girl dies)" with barely any build-up or development like what usually happens. And that'd be the end of poor Cas.

For what it's worth, I do think that if female!Cas was written and treated exactly the same way as canon Cas (unlikely given the show's tendencies, but y'know), she'd still be a fairly popular character.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a D/C shipper and yeah, if Cas had been female she wouldn't have lasted more than a few episodes, just look at Anna for gods sake.

[(Anonymous)]

not wanting women to get in the way of boy love is not misogynistic in itself.

and hating on female characters is not the same as hating on females.

oh, and stop whining.

[ninety6tears]

I've been saying forever that a female character like Castiel probably would have gotten more of an Anna treatment, but I think it's unfair to angrily call hypocrisy on everyone who stands behind the Dean/female!Castiel theory as if any slasher in SPN fandom is automatically one of the misogynists. Especially since people aren't necessarily saying they wish Cas had been female or pretending to wish Cas had been female as much as pointing out the comparative unacceptability of having a m/m relationship in a show like Supernatural.

[(Anonymous)]

While I think it's a bit crappy to generalize (there are certain fans within the SPN fandom who ADORE these women and are perfectly happy to express that adoration. Or there were back when I was active in the fandom) I can mostly agree with this. If Cas had been a woman, chances are she would've gotten plenty of hatred from a good chunk of the vocal fans and I highly doubt she would have lasted more than a season or become anywhere near as a popular as male!Cas did. Also I doubt the actress playing her would have developed the following Mischa did.

There were a handful of female characters the majority of fans seemed okay with. Ellen, Mary, Jess, and Felicia Day's Charlie all seem to be pretty acceptable to the fandom majority. That being said, none of these women were seen as romantic prospects for the boys. Mary because she was their mother and Ellen because she was seen as a mother-figure. Jess was dead and Felicia's character was gay. Make of that what you will

But there were fans within the SPN fandom who loved or at least tolerated most of the recurring female characters. Some of them were even vocal about their love for these girls. But those fans were the minority and the majority of the VOCAL fans seemed to dislike if not loathe many of the female characters. So I agree that a fem!Cas would not have fared much better than any of the other girls and Dean/fem!Cas would be nowhere near as popular as Dean/Cas.

[(Anonymous)]

All I have to say... the only way it would have happened is if Misha Collins himself had been a woman, because it was him playing Castiel that made the character. A woman with his personality? Still would have all those fans.

But yeah, anyway, no.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh rly?
Meg. Meg. MEEEEEG.