[ SECRET POST #2394 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2394 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 038 secrets from Secret Submission Post #342.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

09. http://i.imgur.com/1K85Ep4.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

Nope.

I mean, I'm not really pro-Snape - but the idea that Snape couldn't have been in love with Lily because he was also a Death Eater is simply not realistic, because human beings are complex creatures who do complicated shit for complicated reasons that don't always hang together coherently. Is it rational for him to combine those two things? No. It's not. But people aren't always rational - even extremely smart people.

We are complicated people, and the world is a fucking complicated place, and it's completely plausible that Snape could have had a perfectly sincere love for Lily while also being a genocidal fuckhead (not what you would call a well-expressed love, but love nonetheless).

[(Anonymous)]

snape wank is my favorite wank and I really don't know why.

ftr though, I agree. I do think he cared for her, but I think he was more obsessed than anything else. Remember that scene in the book where he told told Dumbledore that they should give Harry and James to Voldermort if it meant they could save Lily and Dumbledore was like "wtf bro?"? You don't do something like that out of love and any rational person would understand that Lily would never, ever want something like that to save her own life. No one who honestly and truly loved her would suggest that.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know. Love doesn't have to be healthy for it to be or feel real, and the love of a damaged teenager could get all kinds of twisted up before he sorted it back out during his attempts at redemption.

Like, idk, I have met plenty of people who've dated someone of a different race (for example) while making all kinds of ignorant racist remarks about those *other* people of that race. Love is weird and complicated and it doesn't magically exist outside of external social factors.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree, there's no such thing as nuance. Characters are either black or white.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I think he loved the idea of Lily and the person who wanted her to be. And if he did love lily herself, then it wasn't a healthy kind of love and it's definitely not the way I would want to be loved.

[(Anonymous)]

Plenty of reasons to hate the super-snape fans, but this isn't one of them. You'd be amazed at the mental exemptions people can manage to make without even thinking about them. Actually it works better if they don't think of them, Lily obviously existed in a little mental box in his subconscious marked "ignore the implications, deal with it later and it'll all work out". Virtually everyone has a little mental box like that somewhere in our minds.

[(Anonymous)]

Are you... very young, OP?

Cause regular people display behaviours like that every goddamn day. Not so much the joining genocidal groups and all, but plenty of people who are racist/homophobic/sexist/etc while still having a friend/partner/family member who falls in one of those groups. Why? Because people can be very fixed in their hate. So fixed that meeting one person who doesn't fit to whatever mental image they've build up in their mind doesn't prompt them to reconsider their opinions but rather makes them treat said person as the one exception to the rule.

Hell, you ever heard of 'the only good abortion is my abortion' spiel? There are plenty of jackasses that would picket abortion clinics and hound women, yet when it is them or their daughter who accidentally becomes pregnant suddenly in their case an abortion is totally okay. And afterwards they go straight back to hounding other women. People are just hypocrites like that.

[ninety6tears]

It's uncomfortable to acknowledge that people with prejudices can fall in love with people they would otherwise be prejudiced against, but it happens (just consider how many misogynist men throughout history have managed to more or less be in love with their wives?). To say otherwise is getting too close to thinking like loving somebody is inherently some kind of virtue, when the way you respond to that love is what really matters, and that's where Snape fell short because he didn't allow his affection for Lily to make him second-guess anything else in his life.

[(Anonymous)]

The last thing Snape wanted to see was Harry's eyes because it reminded him of Lily's. If that doesn't convince you...

[(Anonymous)]

First, banning you over having that opinion was wrong. I disagree with you on some points, but isn't that the point of a community/forum/wherever you were banned from? The whole HP fandom isn't like this. I hope that's not what you came away with.

I think Snape was... complicated. He saw her as the exception, not the rule. And this is implied to be the case anyway - most DEs are halfblood, implying they have a muggleborn mother or father. They can't all hate their families - rather, they said "well, but Dad's different from the others." Or perhaps they hated muggles and NOT muggleborns - Snape does dismiss Petunia as being "just a muggle" at some point (or something to that effect), which said to me that he didn't care about Lily's blood status, but Petunia was just a muggle, period.

Anyway, we don't know what happened to Snape between Hogwarts and when he stopped being a DE. It's possible as he turned from Lily, his "views" changed, and he was able to buy into things he might not have bought into before. Then Lily came up specifically, and he went into "oh shit" mode, remembering his once dear friend/crush.

[(Anonymous)]

Given the bashed-out-by-angry-kittens way you've written this secret, I wonder just exactly how reasonable your "reasonable manner" of bring this up in the forum was. I get the impression, based on this secret, you hysterically demanded everyone agreed with you and then threw a shit-fit when people didn't and that is why you got banned. Hmmm, yes?

answer to this conundrum

[(Anonymous)]

he was an arrogant, selfish jerk

arrogant, selfish jerks can love and not be "crazy", and still do really fucked up things with fucked up consequences that anybody else would see coming

now, had your argument been "that was obsession born of a crush on someone put on a pedestal by a very lonely kid who never quite grew up, not love"...

[(Anonymous)]

You're welcome to your interpretation even though it's pretty obvious it's not supported by canon or by the author. Given that Harry names his son partially after Severus and tells his son that he was one of the bravest men he ever knew, he probably didn't view Snape as some creepy guy who wanted to bone his mum.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think he loved her, but not for these reasons. He acted like a stalker. I think that he thought he loved her, but it was mostly just a really unhealthy obsession.

[(Anonymous)]

Loved her, yes. Loved her healthily, not so much. But Snape had a shortage of emotional health or emotionally healthy behavior of any kind. He was a giant sink destroying the emotional health of everything he touched.

[(Anonymous)]

Huh, weird one out here... but I completely agree with you. Sure it might be his version of "love", but it's creepy obsessive hate-filled bullshit. He was simply obsessed with the idea of her... if he truly loved her he wouldn't have become what he became. And anyone who would demonize Lily for not loving him back are assholes.

[dancing_clown]

People are complex and don't always do things that make sense. But hasn't this argument been had a thousand times, with, like, half of fandom taking your side?

[transcriptanon]

[Picture is Severus Snape from the film version of the Harry Potter books. He is a man that looks sort of old but with black hair that reaches his chin. He is wearing dark robes and has light skin.]

Nothing can convince me that he loved Lily. Because there's no fucking way you join a genocidal terrorist group dedicated to torturing and murdering Muggleborns if you love a Muggleborn. The guy was not insane. He could put two and two together. He didn't give a shit about her feelings at school, he didn't give a shit about her feelings if her family should be murdered in front of her, and he sure as hell didn't give a shit about her feelings regarding him killing her friends and fellow Muggleborns. it's not romantic, it's sick.

But apparently this is practically blasphemy in this stupid fandom. I tried voicing this in a reasonable manner and got banned for character bashing. SNAPE'S WHOLE LIFE IS SNAPE BASHING FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

[(Anonymous)]

Bearing in mind the Snape of the time the novels are set in is a veritable picture of mental health compared with the teen Snape, who was quite clearly an emotionally abused child both at home and at Hogwarts, as well as suffering PTSD from almost being eaten by a ravening wolf, and forced almost daily to go through a parade of bullying, so we can imagine just exactly how incredibly fucked up the younger Snape was. The amazing thing is not that he thought he loved someone who by rights his ideology should prevent him doing, but that he was able to get through a single day without snapping and going full-on postal on all those around him.

[siofrabunnies]

One of my interpretations is that teenaged Snape clung to Lily as some kind of saviour, that she could pull him back from a life that he could objectively see was wrong, but didn't have to moral compass or fiber or emotional maturity to pull himself back. And she fails because love doesn't conquer everything, and it pushed him over the edge.

Then he grew up, and time twisted what was already pretty mangled in the first place. Maybe he realized he could have been a much better friend. Or maybe his obsession just compounded with regret or longing.

Kinda related, but I think Snape only left Voldemort after Voldemort used Lily's death against Snape ("It's all you're fault. You could have saved her. And she was so kind to you when you were kids." Some kind of keep-the-ranks-in-line thing or something.).

[(Anonymous)]

I don't agree with your reasoning of how you got to the point of it not being love, but I agree it was probably obsession, not love. And you shouldn't have been banned for not liking Snape and expressing it. (Does anyone who isn't a crazy 12 year old with a crush actually *like* Snape? You like his complex character, not the asshole of a man himself, right?)

[applesock]

I just want to know where you were banned.

[maplelump]

OP here

[(Anonymous)]

Lots of people are kind of missing the point. I know people can have conflicting emotions when it comes to prejudice and love. That happens. It's a very messed up kind of love but there you go.

But there's a bit of a difference between that and actively trying to pretty much ruin that person's life. If you love someone, even in an unhealthy way, you don't do pretty much everything in your power to ruin their life. He joined in the genocide. He would've gladly seen her husband and son killed if she was alive (but you know, devastated and possibly suicidal). He didn't care when the people she loved and fought for were slaughtered. He didn't listen to her thoughts and feelings about her sister or what he was doing to other muggleborns, or basically anything else (like what she might've wanted for her son, who he abused liberally for his own amusement).

I would never consider that love. Obsession, sure. But if that's love then the word is kind of losing all meaning. He seemed to care about the fact that she was nice to him, but didn't care about all the things that made her who she was. Obsession perfectly explains his tenacity and his actions regarding fighting on Dumbledore's side while also explaining his other actions and disregard for basically everything that made Lily who she was.