[ SECRET POST #1892 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1892 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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02.
[How I Met Your Mother]


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03.
[White Collar]


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04.
[Smash]


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05.
[How I Met Your Mother]


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06.
[Revenge]


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07.
[The Hunger Games]


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08.
[Yu-Gi-Oh]


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09.
[White Collar]


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10.
[Obscurus Lupa, Subspecies]


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11.
[Castleville]


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12.
[Gintama]


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13.
[The Cat Returns]


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14.
[Mythbusters]


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15.
[Invasion of the Body Snatchers]


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16.
[Titanic]


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17.
[All Dogs go to Heaven]


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18.
[Hatoful Boyfriend]


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19.
[Pokemon]


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20.
[Phantom of the Opera]


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21.
[The Middle]


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22.
[life on mars]


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23.
[Scrubs]


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24.
[A Goofy Movie]


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25.
[Nerimon/Alex Day]


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26.
[Katie McGrath]


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27.
[Chuck]


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28.
[Top Chef Season 9]


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29.
[The Vampire Diaries]


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30.
[The Vampire Diaries]


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 045 secrets from Secret Submission Post #270.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

(frozen comment)

[herongale]

Actually, this is totally correct. I was reading some feminist theory the other day and it was talking about how the feminist movement has kind of derailed itself a bit by making everything about choice, as if a woman's choices come free of context and pressure from society. The choices women make will never be as free as we want them to be if they come in the context of not having fully equal rights. Rights are more fundamental than choice.

I mean, consider a woman who is raised in a closed Christian community and "chooses" to be a stay-at-home mom and have 14 children, one who got married young and maybe didn't even finish high school. People can argue that women in those situations choose to be like that, but isn't it more likely that they never really had a choice to do anything else to begin with? Without the right to be treated as fully equal to boys, and the right to grow up free of harassment and demeaning messages that cause women to devalue their own worth, the so-called choice a woman might have just might be delusion instead.

(frozen comment)

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

Without the right to be treated as fully equal to boys, and the right to grow up free of harassment and demeaning messages that cause women to devalue their own worth, the so-called choice a woman might have just might be delusion instead.

A million times this. I never understood the skepticism against the "as long as it's her choice, she's doing it right" brand of feminism until it was explained this way. When misogyny is so heavily ingrained in society that women internalize it and believe themselves to be lesser beings without even realizing it, it's hard to tell when a choice is really a choice and not just the result of careful manipulation over the last few millennia.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

In other words, women are not their own person and we should question every "choice" they make (especially if it goes against with what I would do) .

Seriously though, where does the line get drawn? When do we stop questioning everything a woman does an trust that she knows what's best for herself? And who exactly gets to decide if a woman is doing something because she really wants to do it and not because she's forced to by society?

(frozen comment)

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

In other words, women are not their own person and we should question every "choice" they make

Yes. We aren't our own people when we're constantly bombarded with messages from society that say otherwise. As long as pressure from gender roles factor into our choices, they aren't truly ours, and we have to be aware of that.

We stop questioning everything we do when we are given the same rights and equal treatment and are free from oppressive expectations specifically tied to our gender. Until then? Yes, we examine our choices and why we're making them, and whether it's what we really want or what we think we want because that's what we've been told we're supposed to want.

I don't believe in shaming or browbeating any woman for her choices; just in encouraging all women to examine why they make the choices they do. There's nothing wrong with simply questioning why you're doing something. Hell, if more people thought before choosing, the world would be far less screwed up right now.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

DA

We aren't our own people when we're constantly bombarded with messages from society that say otherwise.

Everyone is bombarded with messages from society about how they should behave according to gender. That doesn't mean I'm not my own person, and you can shove that theory where the sun don't shine.

I'm ashamed to have you on my "side."

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

Except peoples' urging for women to question their choices only ever comes out when it's choices they wouldn't make. No one ever tells a woman to question why she's making the choice to go to medical school. No one ever asks if that's what she really wants or if she's just rebelling against what society tells her she can't do without actually wanting it in the long term. It's only if she wants to be a housewife that society apparently has any influence at all because what self respecting woman would want to be a housewife? (Which ties into the fact that 'traditionally feminine' roles are sometimes denigrated by feminists as inherently lesser and not just as being treated lesser by society which helps no one.)

There are people who's choices are influenced by society but that doesn't mean women can't make their own choices and need to be led around by the nose by the 'enlightened women' that totally know what's best whether you like it or not.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

I am so sick of having other people question my every decision. And forget it being a women's rights issue, it's ALWAYS fellow women that I feel most persecuted by. Such as having all of my male coworkers tell me I should apply for a certain security position, then having my FEMALE boss inform me that I cannot work that position because I'm female and "what if someone pulled a gun on you?"

Uhhh, I dunno, I'd probably get shot? You know, just like a male would? Seriously, I am no more or less bulletproof than a male kthnxbai.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

So I can never make my own choices?

You know what, that theory can fuck right off, as well as anyone who believes it. I am not a lesser being and I can make my own damn decisions. If you don't like that you can sit the fuck down and keep your mouth shut.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

Until you bother to think about what you're doing and why you're doing it, you will always be a lesser being, regardless of what's between your legs.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

I do! :) I do things that I think is right upon careful consideration. There's a reason why I've been at the top of every school I've ever gone to.

(frozen comment)

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

Please stop pulling the argument out of your ass that "please stop judging my choices" somehow implies "I make my choices without any careful thought."
Some people see around the messages society bombards them with and make those choices based on careful thought and consideration. These people are not only the people who agree with you.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

I agree that context does play a big part in the decisions that people make, and that societal pressure and misogyny are a big part of that context for women. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I do have a problem when people approach issues from this viewpoint, and then instead of using it to target the issues within our society that create this context, use it as license to essentially judge others and try to convince them that, because their choices are not the choices that they would make personally, they're wrong or anti-feminist. The idea of coming into someone's life and essentially telling them that their choices are somehow wrong because of what you, as someone who is not that person, believe are the circumstances that influenced said choices, has always seemed kind of shitty to me. Obviously, not all feminists who take this stance do that, but there are some, which I think is part of the reason why so many other people in the feminist community place such an emphasis on choice.

(Not saying you do any of this yourself. I've just seen it before - for everything from a woman being a stay at home mom or a sex worker to having an interest in fashion or other so-called "vapid" pursuits - and it never fails to bother me.)

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

This bothers me too. I don't like many "traditionally girly" things, but you know what? Just because I hate them and sometimes even find them vapid, doesn't mean that I'm allowed to police what other people enjoy, particularly writing it off as "You don't really like that, society only tells you you should."

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

Exactly! I've seen so many people write off women who are more traditionally "feminine" in their interests, clothing, etc. as vapid or chalk their behaviour and choices up to them being "unenlightened", and then typically claim they're being a jerk to people "for their own good". It's a bit too paternalistic for my tastes, honestly.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

Haha! I do find some of the choices vapid in the same way I find video games vapid. ;) However that falls under the "Playing with the gravel on the side of the road of life."

However, implying that it's not their free choice is just so dehumanizing.

(frozen comment)

[herongale]

Oh, I agree that it's actually totally shitty to question any individual woman on her choices.

For me, I think it's more that I think the emphasis in feminist activism should be fighting for equal access and equal rights more than anything else. Being able to make choices for yourself is important, and should be supported for all women, but when it comes towards what to fight for... well, I think that fighting for rights ends up being a lot more concrete, the outcomes a lot more easily measured.

Like, when it comes to abortion, the important thing to fight for is the right to be able to have abortions legally and safely. In terms of whether any given woman will choose to do so, that's still going to be up to her. It bothers me that women can still be pressured into having/not having abortions by family and friends, but I think the way to combat that is to ensure that women can have as much financial autonomy and privacy as possible so as to protect their right to make the decision without coercion.

So things like the right to eduction, the right to work and receive equal pay, the right to safety from harassment, the right to divorce, the right to contraception.... ensuring that all those rights and more are in place are what we can do to protect free choice. What we should NOT be doing is questioning women about the choices they do make.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

It depends on the choice. In the secret OP's case, if she wants to marry someone who is violent, controlling, and abusive just because he has money? You better believe I'm going to question her choice. Possibly her sanity, too.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

You should question her choices! No women's choices are above questioning; however, there's a difference between saying "This is a stupid choice for reasons x, y, and z" and saying "This is an unfeminist choice."

(frozen comment)

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with this. 100%.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

This is actually exactly what I was getting at in my comment, and you've summed up a lot of the problem I have with the whole "Feminism is not about choice!" issue. Feminism is not just about choice, but both the ability to make your own choices and the rights that ensure that women are not limited in their options when making said choices are important parts of the fight for equality.

Some of the people doing said criticism, unlike yourself, either a) take their argument to the extreme and essentially strip women of all agency by assuming that women (and people in general) can't put some level of thought into the choices they make without someone else telling them to do so and b) forget to go beyond their own rhetoric and actually target the issues in society that might limit the options that a woman has when making said choices. It's okay to say that feminism is not just about choice, but it doesn't give people license to be a jerk to other women who make decisions that don't fall in line with their own personal morals. Or to imply that women are incapable of making sound decisions without someone stepping in to point out how and why their choices are wrong. If I don't need a man to step in and guide my choices in the "right" direction, I don't need another woman to do so, either, no matter how good the intentions behind that might be.

(I'm preaching to the choir here, but it just really gets my goat when people use feminism (or social justice on a larger scale) as an excuse to be a jerk to others. Apparently I needed to vent...)

(frozen comment)

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

I mean, consider a woman who is raised in a closed Christian community and "chooses" to be a stay-at-home mom and have 14 children, one who got married young and maybe didn't even finish high school. People can argue that women in those situations choose to be like that, but isn't it more likely that they never really had a choice to do anything else to begin with?

If she was forced into that life by her situation, she's not choosing it. If she actually chooses it - and I'm pretty sure the concept of choice inherently implies "more than one option" and somewhat implies "more than one viable option" - then that's her business.
These things are also not in any way mutually exclusive: if you spread the word that women are equal to men, and change the institutions so that women actually are equal to men, some of the women in those communities will still choose to marry young and be stay at home moms with fourteen kids. Because equality brings other options, but doesn't mean those women have to choose them.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

Even with other options available, social conditioning is the biggest hurdle to get over. You'll still have a lot of women "choosing" to be like that because it's what her mother and grandmother and great-grandmother did and it she doesn't want to be disowned by her family and kicked out of her church.

Believe me, I live in a city full of such women. Having more options doesn't mean the social stigma of breaking tradition is gone.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

You'll still have a lot of women "choosing" to be like that because it's what her mother and grandmother and great-grandmother did and it she doesn't want to be disowned by her family and kicked out of her church.

Or maybe because her ancestors did it, she actually enjoys that way of life and has seen benefits from it.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

How do you know you really enjoy that life when you don't have anything to compare it to?

(frozen comment)

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

Well then we should keep fighting against the constraints on their choices, but they should feel free to follow tradition if that will make life easiest for them and if tradition is valuable to them.

It all seems to come down to semantics over the word "choice" which is what I was doing with my first comment (e.g. the implication that other options, particularly viable options, are available). I believe what the writer of that linked article from the comments against choice feminism (http://www.xojane.com/entertainment/choice-feminism-isn%27t-a-choice) is saying, looking at their 'cake or death' analogy, is that it's so hard to go against the patriarchy that it may as well be a non-choice like "go with society or die, or at least struggle way, way, way harder than somebody who joins us." What I'm hearing is "you are a puppet with no mind" and not "these choices are so not viable as to be not even considered choices." Probably because I don't consider those choices to be inviable just because they're hard. Lots of big life choices have unequal outputs of effort to make a reality.
If I can choose between two professions and one will be much harder than the other, and I choose the harder one because it's in a field I enjoy, was that not a choice? Was it not a choice if I picked the easier one? Is it a choice if they're both equally unavailable to women, but not a choice if one is considered a more male-dominated field?
How is it not a choice to pick the harder thing, to say "I'm going to keep my own name when I get married and suffer all the inevitable resulting bullshit" for example? If that's a choice, how is the opposite not a choice, if the other one is available?