[ SECRET POST #2790 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2790 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 069 secrets from Secret Submission Post #399.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

09. http://oi57.tinypic.com/15gdsbd.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

I find it amazing that anyone can call Katara a Mary Sue. That girl had a bitch streak a mile wide. I kind of liked it!

[(Anonymous)]

I LOVE Katara. So much. I love that she can be mean and petty and the show will call her on it. Just like Aang or Sokka. The Waterbending Scroll was one of my favorite episodes. When she yells at Aang "Maybe we should just throw the scroll away since you're so naturally gifted!" I thought that was great writing. It really seemed like something a jealous and exasperated 14 year old girl would say.

[(Anonymous)]

I felt like Katara's "mean" side was presented as yet another thing that made her badass. You're not supposed to see it as just "she can be mean" but more of "she's not afraid to say what's on her mind and doesn't care what anyone thinks of her for it, isn't that awesome?!" And that is a Mary Sue trait, exactly like the secret says she has.

[(Anonymous)]

This. How dose Katara have ANY mary-sue traits? She has tons of flaws.
Have you ever actually watched the show OP? Because I don't think you ever got past the first episode.
This secret is dumb and you should feel dumb.

[(Anonymous)]

This! She was definitely a kind and nurturing person towards her friends but she also had some (understandable) anger issues, especially where the fire nation was involved. I think it gave her some depth and made her an interesting character. I liked that, for all that she's a reasonably understanding person, she was the last one of the group to forgive Zuko and other things like that

[(Anonymous)]

Mary Sue has lost all its meaning these days tbh. Who is in the top right corner?

[(Anonymous)]

Lana Lang from Smallville.

ALL heroines are "Sues"

[(Anonymous)]

I always had issues with the term, because in fandom it often seemed to mean "bitch OC gets with canon character I have a fan crush on" (I mean, romantic pairings with OCs were often bad, but the fact that it was forbidden altogether made me question the real reason), and it seems to be the case with fanworks too.

My other issue is that heroes have to be Stus and Sues. They have to be the best at what they do, or there wouldn't be a story. They have to be in the lead. Otherwise there wouldn't be a story.

THANK YOU OP

[jaybie_jarrett]

I am so entirely tired of this kind of thing. In all honesty I don't even believe much in Mary Sue Traits anymore, because I feel like it's putting emphasis on the wrong thing. Instead of making a list of traits that Mary Sues have but OTHER characters can have as well, emphasis should be put on the things that make them Sues which is favoritism and preferential treatment by the narrative itself.

Mary Sues are characters that a.) are so perfect that aren't challenged by the story events, and that b.) get obvious favoritism from the author. You could have a decent flawed and reasonably treated character that is pretty, has a tragic past, or has some kind of special status but is a good character , and a middle class ordinary girl who is a complete Mary Sue because of how the author gives her everything she wants.

[(Anonymous)]

I suspect (though I have no evidence to support this, it's just a feeling I get) that a lot of female characters getting called Mary Sues has to do with them being "the complete package." What I mean by that is that these women often have it all -- they're intelligent, popular, well-liked, and beautiful. Very often they're a main love interest as well.

They have flaws, of course, but I think a lot of girls and women find such depictions to be a bit…intimidating. Because they can be difficult to live up to. And I think there might be insecurity mixed in there.

Male characters, of course, are often the same way -- intelligent, popular, handsome, well-liked. The thing about male characters though is that they're often the focus of the narrative and so their flaws are explored in very real ways and can be used to give them a character arc. Also, it seems to me that writers are much more willing to show other characters flat-out despising or beating up a male main character rather than a female one. And I think this helps to level the ground for a lot of viewers.

I would say it's a combination of things -- women are taught (in a lot of ways) to view other women as competition which I think is why the Mary Sue label gets thrown around so much. But I also think male characters getting more focus and better writing contributes as well.

I'm only really familiar with Katara and Bella on this picture, but I will say I agree with you OP. Bella's a Sue while I love Katara.

[cabler]

The main and most important characteristic of a Mary Sue is that she is badly written. A character that is awesome at things and looks good is not a Mary Sue otherwise.

[meishuu]

Ah, yes, good'old "Mary Sue" thing. I wish it would just die already, since it doesn't seem to mean anything any more just "A female character that I don't like". When I see a female character called a Mary Sue I ask myself "If she was male, will the people complain the same way?", most of the time the answer is "No", and that's why I don't use that ridiculous term any more.

They are badly written characters (Bella Swan for example), but I still avoid the term because of it's connotations.

[(Anonymous)]

Who's the one on the bottom right?

I feel like I might be the type of fan that OP is talking about so I'll try to explain...

[(Anonymous)]

I can be like this. I know it's wrong but it's often how I react to some female characters.

Let's take the character of Uhura from the newest Star Trek for instance. I just couldn't identify with her and found her Sue-ish even though I know she's not. But it just came across to me that way. Reasons being:

-She's popular (opening scene with friends at the bar)
-Gets hit on by/rejects hot guy and is dating other hot guy
-Smartest in her class and more competent than the current Enterprise bridge officer
-No other character dislikes her (this is why I can't see Kirk as a Stu even if he fits the definition better technically -- he just gets his face beat in too much) -- heck, even when she insults Kirk by calling him a hick who only has sex with farm animals, it doesn't matter at all
-Never makes a mistake, even accidentally

In the first film, everyone fucked up to some extent. Kirk got his ass handed to him constantly. Spock fucked up and tried to choke the shit out of Kirk while being wrong about their course of action. McCoy accidentally triggered an allergic reaction in Kirk. Sulu forgot the "parking brake." Chekov lost Spock's mom (accidentally). Scotty accidentally sent them to the wrong part of the ship.

Uhura, meanwhile, never had a moment like that. The closest we get is in the sequel where the Klingons don't listen to her. But even that isn't really due to a mistake or fault on her part (even accidental). She didn't actually DO anything or make a choice that led to the negative outcome.

She just seems to have been written as the perfect girlfriend and communications officer -- talented, intelligent, beautiful, desired, never fucks up, never disliked by other crew members, popular.

And I'm nothing like that. So I imagine the reaction is the result of insecurity in some cases.

[comradesmiler]

This Ahsoka fan approves.

[cure_light]

Yeah, it's definitely time to throw out that phrase. It was always kind of a stupid term to begin with, but now it's getting in the way of actual discussion of female characters. It's become so meaningless that it's a surefire dead end for any good conversation and someone's always going to pull it out like it's some kind of trump card.

[(Anonymous)]

None of them are Mary Sues, because a Mary Sue is a fandom-specific thing. They may be badly-written characters, but they aren't fictional-universe-warping fan wish fulfillment avatars.

[(Anonymous)]

Mary-sue traits is an even more useless therm then mary-sue itself. I mean if mary-sue means unflawed heroic character what would a characted with mary-sue traits mean? A heroic character that gets what they want? That is pretty much 90% of the good guys in fiction.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree.

There's nothing wrong with the term "Mary Sue" as originally defined, which essentially described a type of original character in fanfiction who was a blatant, overly-perfect self-insert, not any female character in any media with any skills, heroic traits, or attractive features.

The problem is that now people apply the term "Mary Sue" far more broadly and liberally than it was meant to be. When I hear people say they hate the term because it just means "female character you don't like" I want to shout "That's not what it means! All those people are using it wrong and now they've given you the wrong idea, too!"

[(Anonymous)]

Ah, Lana Lang. She has a special place in my heart as the first television character I ever hated. I've long since stopped caring about the show, but seeing that picture of her really brings back the memories. The inconsistent writing/personality, magically disappearing-then-reappearing kung-fu skills, the pathetic attempts to make her character seem relevant, etc., etc.

[silvereriena]

Those are some good examples, OP. I get what you mean. Personally, I sometimes still use the term Mary Sue, but it really doesn't apply to the vast majority of female characters a lot of people think it does. My understanding has always been that a Sue was a female character who is pretty much there to be the embodiment of everything the viewer/reader could want to be with no consequences, so less of a character and more of a fantasy stand-in.

Although I'm not sure why you included Kate on the Sue side, even if her character was shittily written.

[blitzwing]

Bella Swan is a Mary-Sue? I thought she was deliberately written to be blah and generic so that readers could insert themselves into her.

[(Anonymous)]

Meh, the moment anyone says anything mean about Gwen I stick my fingers in my ears and sing la-la-la. I love her, and loved her from her early awkwardness to her later badassery. Love. At one point I was just sorry she wasn't going to end up with Merlin, but I got over that as I got to like Arthur better, and I liked her being Merlin's friend.

[(Anonymous)]

This is why I've stopped paying attention to people calling "Mary Sue" on canon characters anymore. Part of the reason was that I once knew someone in a fandom who started calling *all* the female characters that because she was uncomfortable with the idea of anyone but the men boinking off-screen. (It was a no-kissing-no-hugging kind of series centered on violence, action and philosophy, but my once-friend did have her fantasies and delusions). And part of the reason is just... what I see in genreal as a kind of media-induced sexism in fandom. It seems to me that any *female* character that proves to be even mildly *interesting* has *someone, somewhere* accusing her of being a "Sue" because she is interesting. She either is "too nurturing" or she's "too baddass" and no matter what she does, she's "trying too hard" while male characters get away with the same things and more.

I don't know the character in the middle of the left-hand column, but Katara... well, I considered all of the characters ATLA to be well-rounded and realistic, at least as far as people who can bend elements can be considered "real." I recall Katara having her bratty moments. I think Aang possibly had more "suish" traits, but wound up coming across as a charming kid all the same. And Katniss... If the "Mary Sue" type is a wish-fulfillment character, count me out. By the middle of the Hunger Games series, she's clearly losing her mind and is a total basket-case by the end of Mockingjay. She also has enough "What the Hell, Hero?" moments to keep her well out of Suedom for me.

When "Mary Sue" is merely "codename for female character I don't like" - it becomes a meaningless term.

That said, I enjoy doing play-by-post roleplays with characters I'm happy to call "Mary Sues" because they aren't serious writing or fanfic characters, but are just ephemeral roleplay-fun. So, on one level, I don't even have a problem with the existence of the character-type. In certain contexts, they can be fun.