[ SECRET POST #3058 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3058 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 042 secrets from Secret Submission Post #437.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

I'm in a writing class right now, and we have this guy in our class that's at least in his 60's/70's, taking college classes for fun and all that.

For his final project short story, he wrote a story about a fifty year old who married a twenty-two year old who just so happened to have curves in all the right places, a bunch of guys hitting on her all the time (but she turns them down, naturally), and she's super sweet and kind and blah blah blah.

In my letter, and in the class, I pointed out that having a fifty year old guy marry a twenty-two year old might be a little creepy.

This week, I was talking with the teacher, and he mentioned that I mightn't have wanted to talk about that, in case "I hurt the feelings of a fifty year old who fell in love with a twenty-two year old" and it "happens all the time... In Hollywood."

He's normally a good teacher, but holy shit. I'm sorry, if you're fifty year old, and you're falling for a twenty year old, and you're ~feelings are hurt~ because someone calls you creepy... Grow the fuck up, and maybe think a little bit about why people are finding it creepy.

I know that it can happen in real life, and that it can be a fantasy for younger woman, etc. but this was definitely NOT from the POV of the young woman, and it fulfilling a fantasy for her; it was definitely an old man's fantasy. And you know what, having a fantasy is okay? But when you type it out for a short story for a class, and put it out for critique, people are welcome to critique you're creepy ass fantasies.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

Well you know two people who need to die. Happy hunting.

Re: Ughhhhh

[dethtoll]

Grow up or get funny.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

there's something wrong with you

Re: Ughhhhh

[blitzwing]

people are welcome to critique you're creepy ass fantasies.

Not in the way you're doing? Critiques are generally supposed to help you write better. They're not supposed to be a critique of the type of content. Complaining about genres or subject matter isn't going to help someone write better. You're just telling them not to write what they like to write.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

Eh, I think OP has a legitimate point. If the story contains shit like this:

"who just so happened to have curves in all the right places, a bunch of guys hitting on her all the time (but she turns them down, naturally), and she's super sweet and kind and blah blah blah. "

Then it's basically poor writing. You're writing a Mary Sue girlfriend basically, instead of a three dimensional female character.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

Yep. If you're sharing it in class, it's basically understood that it's going to be critiqued.

Hell, I'm 23 and I find PLENTY of older guys attractive, but at the same time, I don't really understand why they could possibly be interested in me (beyond a physical level).

I have so much less life experience than them that it's insane. What the hell would we talk about?

I mean, I have difficulty imagining dating an 18 year old guy and that's only a five year age difference. They just seem like children to me.

Things like this make me cynical as hell to be honest.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

"This was definitely NOT from the POV of the young woman, and it fulfilling a fantasy for her; it was definitely an old man's fantasy."

Thus it is gross and needs to not be.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

Your critique was legit. I've had this happen in writing workshops, too. There's always at least one person who writes stories that are poorly disguised wish fulfillment fantasies. There's nothing wrong with having fantasies, of course, but if they don't make for a compelling reason to your classmates, well, that's a reason for concrit right there.

But your teacher's a moron who's too chicken to rock the boat. You should ask him if all the stuff that happens in Hollywood (drug abuse/alcoholism, child abuse/neglect, murder, cheating, etc.) is perfectly okay by that reasoning.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

As an anon above said, you are are making an ethical objection to something in his content, not at all talking about his writing itself. In fact, it's not even about the content, it sounds like it's the superficial outline. It's one thing to say "I don't understand why character A has fallen in love with character B" or "I'm having trouble seeing the chemistry" but you're just saying "I object to this so there!"

I'm not saying you're wrong - I'd also be a bit wary of a fifty-something guy dating a twenty-something woman. But you know what, they are both adults. That twenty-two year old woman is an adult, not a vulnerable child. If the story contained a 16 year old child, then yeah, I might be compelled to mention something too, but really your "critique" doesn't sound helpful at all. Even if it is 50-something-year-old wish fulfillment romance, so what? There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

I sort of see the professor's point, sorry. :( It's all about wording.

Although "it happens all the time in Hollywood" isn't the best excuse imho. I mean, so do drug overdoses.

Re: Ughhhhh

[fingalsanteater]

Like, I get where you are coming from, but I also kind of get where your prof is coming from too? Sure, it is creepy, but if you know this is just a class for fun for the dude, you could've worded the critique a little differently maybe? I don't know. I'm not really for calling others fantasies creepy, but at the same time, he presented it to the class for critique as a story, so you are right to call him on the content. I'm kind of torn on this one, tbh.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not clear at all on what is creepy about two adults being married, no. And I'm a twenty-two year old woman.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

On the one hand, your teacher's line of reasoning is weird as hell. And that story sounds rather poorly conceived.

On the other hand, "a little creepy" doesn't sound like particularly helpful or even well-written critique. It seems like no one in this story is doing anything right.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

There's a difference between calling the content creepy, and calling the author creepy, and given the way you phrased this:

"...and you're ~feelings are hurt~ because someone calls you creepy... Grow the fuck up, and maybe think a little bit about why people are finding it creepy."

I'm not qutie sure which direction you chose in your critique. As others have said, pointing out that the content may come across as disturbing to the audience is a perfectly valid criticism. Judging/misjudging the audience's reaction is an important aspect for any writer to learn.

When "someone calls you creepy" then that's another matter altogether.

You critique the work, not the person. If your teacher has found it necessary to comment on the way you framed your critique, then chances are it's because you crossed that line.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

If you're in a writing class and "creepy" is the best you can do for an honest, non-biased critique, then your professor should've told you more then "we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings."

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

To be honest, it sounds like this is your very first writing class, because you seem to have zero idea of what constitutes "constructive criticism." How is it in any way a shock to you that people like to write out their fantasies? That's how novels get written. Your moral objection means literally nothing, especially in the context of a classroom writing critique.

Instead of the personally-directed "your fantasies are creepy", you should have focused on the writing, and offered suggestions on how to make it better. Such as: try adding some focus to the twenty-two year old woman, show us her motivations and personality, flesh her out as a character. Try to avoid clichés in descriptions like "curves in all the right places." Things like that.

I'm sorry, but while the "it happens all the time in Hollywood" is a slightly odd thing to add, your teacher was completely correct. You leveled judgement at a real person, instead of critiquing a piece of writing. That has no place in a writing program. If you can't accept that people are going to write about things you find objectionable, then I highly suggest that you drop the program immediately and find a path more suited to you.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

How did you make it through a writing class when you can't even use "you're" and "your" correctly?

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

Guess what. When two adults are in a consenting relationship, no matter how creepy you might find it, it's totally legal and acceptable. So get that stick out of your ass.

Re: Ughhhhh

[feotakahari]

I've gotten clonked with the "this is creepy" stick more than once, and I have to say, I honestly needed it. My first exposure to how to write sexuality was Literotica, and when you've stewed in that atmosphere long enough, it becomes harder to recognize when your characters have boundary issues or get way too pushy. I'm not saying you should tell authors they're horrible and should die, but harshness can be a wakeup call.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

Your prof was right in this case. The one who needs to "grow the fuck up" here is YOU because you obviously have no idea what the purpose of critique is.

Critique is for the structure and technical merit of the writing, not for your own personal opinions about the subject matter. You think the twenty-two year old is too perfect and flawless and thus comes off as flat? That's legit critique because it addresses a technical issue with the writing - that the character is not well-developed or fleshed out. You think it's creepy for a twenty-two year old and a fifty year old to get married? That's personal opinion and has no bearing on the writing itself.

I dislike sci-fi as a genre. I find most of the tropes that crop up in it to be boring. But that's MY opinion and does not mean that a sci-fi story is bad, just that it isn't to my personal tastes. Being objectively bad and being subjectively bad are two very different things.

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

lmao why are people so mad about this

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

Oh god, don't you know that story is just perfect for any Hollywood studio?!

Re: Ughhhhh

[(Anonymous)]

Calling the story creepy may not have been valid as literary critique, but I think your professor was wrong to make it an issue of potentially hurting the feelings of a hypothetical person in Hollywood or whatever. It's not a valid critique of your critique.

He should have made this into a teachable moment and encouraged you to delve a little deeper into what you did and didn't like about the story and come up with some constructive criticism.

Re: Ughhhhh

[ariakas]

While some commenters are getting a little over-emotional based on what they perceive as a value judgement they disagree with, they're not wrong in that critique should focus on the writing, not the man. I know you posted what you actually wrote below, and most of it's just fine, to be honest. But rather than "creepy" I'd have gone with "not terribly believable" because that's how it seems like you actually feel, as you didn't buy the age gap as it was written. Saying that it wasn't justified well enough implies that you would have been fine with it, or at least less put off, if it was well-justified, does it not?

To be sure, a lot of writing is pure self-indulgent or pandering fantasy (see: every hot 20-something natural blonde Dirk Pitt bones in Clive Cussler's novels, no matter how old he gets, or the seven-foot-tall billionaire with ripped abs falling for the plain Jane heroine of a romance novel) but that doesn't mean it's exempt from the criticism of being a pandering/self-indulgent fantasy. There sure are a lot of people implying that in this thread, too, which couldn't be more wrong. To be sure, some authors will shrug and go "whatevs, I write what I wanna write" and there's nothing you can do about it, but that doesn't somehow invalidate the critique that what they're writing is unbelievable, vapid wish-fulfillment in any way whatsoever.