[ SECRET POST #1679 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1679 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 136 secrets from Secret Submission Post #240.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom.livejournal.com]

28. http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6951/jsdaudhtfreygrh.jpg

[that-evening.livejournal.com]

I have never had a problem with Mary Sues. 99 percent of fic is creating something you want to see/like to think about/enjoy/so on and so why are Mary Sue fics so bad? We get crushes, we have fantasies, why not write them out/have someone write one for you?

I just don't think they should be thrown in with regular fic (best to remain private between fandom friends or their on site).

[snowtroublehere.livejournal.com]

sometimes you get people IRL who would be called mary sues in fiction though

cough kalafina cough shameless advertising cough

[(Anonymous)]

I think the term "Gary Stu" is absurd. "Mary Sue" is a gender-neutral term. It comes from a specific character and is thus a name-based term. That's kind of like insisting that "boycott" is gender-based even though it's not derived from "boy" at all.

[classic-mold137.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I agree that Mary Sues can't exist in original fiction, but I do think the phrase gets thrown about too much.

Yes!

[nopejustme.livejournal.com]

This! So much this!

People call the most random of characters Sues, and I can't comprehend why. I mean, Harry Potter? Really? The guy who shouts and makes mistakes and acts like a bratty teenager because he is one?
They are far too willing to point the finger. Because really, you take out everything that makes a main character special, be in a power, or backstory or whatever. Strip them down and you know what you have? A really boring character that no-one wants to read about. I mean, who would read "Harry Potter and the mediocre year at a muggle school because wizards are Gary-stus'.

The women thing bothers me too. Katniss from the Hunger Games was accused of this and I was like 'really? Why? Because she's a good archer/the main character?" There's no other reason. She doesn't even control half the events that occur during the books. The problem is that cynicism is seen as intelligence, and people think they seem more impressive while hating something than enjoying it.

The problem is that audiences are never pleased.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, I think the reason you see the term 'Mary Sue' more often than 'Gary Stu' is because people use the term for both genders. Why use a second term for something that can just as easily be covered by the original [relatively gender neutral] term?

Mmmmyes.

[zikadee.livejournal.com]

I agree with this one.

(Aside from the hating Mary Sues. I friiiigggin LOVE mine. I just don't approve of sharing them with anyone else.)

[lemon-m.livejournal.com]

You're preaching to the choir, at least in f!s. For what it's worth, I agree.

[365reasonswhy.livejournal.com]

Sometimes it seems like people just level the Mary Sue/Gary Stu accusation at any fic, story, book, show, movie etc. character they don't like. It definitely can be relevant, but so often it just feels like something people hurl at each other in shipping wars.

[masked-creator.livejournal.com]

While I will agree the Sue/Stu terms are dished out too often without the person understanding what they actually mean, a main character can easily be a Sue or Stu. Think of Twilight, or look up the Anita Blake books sometime. The main character Anita starts off as an awesome character and slowly changes into a power hungry sex fiend with like 20 boyfriends and no one ever calling her out on her bullshit (and when they rarely do it's hardly a big deal). A main character is one of the most important pieces of the story but when the world revolves around them without any sort of negative consequence for their bullshit, you know something's up.

[amyrat151.livejournal.com]

I hear that, hon.
I think Mary Sue is used far too often as an insult. The worst example, for me, was Elizabeth, from Pirates of the Caribbean. Jack Sparrow manages more than half of the improbable crap she does and he's never called out on it. I do suspect gender biased there.

[helenadax.livejournal.com]

I do think some characters from original fiction can be MS: Ayla of the Zelandonii or whatever comes to my mind right now. She didn't start like one but she stepped into MS territory in the second book and right now she's almost a joke. I haven't read the last book, but I'm sure that she must have found out how to make heart transplants by now.

[kallanda-lee.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree.

I've read some really bad Mary Sueish insert fic. But that's just it - the fic was bad. I honestly don't even mind a character like that, as long as they're well-written.

[childings.livejournal.com]

I thought that a main character, by definition, cannot be a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Yet so many main characters get branded with that label. Did the definition change or am I just not remembering it correctly?

[swaggerdoodle.livejournal.com]

I've never understood the problem people have with Mary Sue's. Sure, some of them can be pretty annoying, but so can canon characters. Even when it comes to the self-inserts. This last one bothers me especially for these reasons:

1. It's just fiction. Hell, it's not even being published or sold for profit. It's just something someone did in their spare time because they wanted to. Why should they be punished for having fun?

2. Who the hell hasn't fantasized about riding along in the backseat of the Winchester's Impala or staking vamps with Buffy and The Gang? It's completely normal to want to be a part of that world rather than always sitting on the outside peering in. Where's the harm in that?

3. Last but not least, IA with the OP that complains about claiming every character they don't like is a Mary Sue. I won't lie and say there aren't any in existence (I'm looking at you, Max Guevara), but sometimes the writer's just tend to come up with an annoying character. It doesn't automatically make them a Sue/Stu.

People just need to learn to loosen up and stop taking these things seriously.

[duae.livejournal.com]

On the gender bias, I think it's more a matter of the traditional role rather than the character. Because (generally) the main character is a (typically white) male, he's set up to be the most important character in a story. And a Sue's job is to steal the spotlight. So as soon as a female character starts getting spotlight it's natural to start eyeballing her because that's not "her place" in the story.

And sometimes I do think any character who starts stealing spotlight can be a Sue, it's just that we expect male characters to, not female, so we look at them harder. My personal litmus test for canon Sues is "Are they making the main characters look stupid in order to make themselves look better?" Like the Star Trek episode where the entire crew gets addicted to a video game, except the teen Wesley? And so he single-handedly has to save the entire ship, even though he's just a plucky civilian, because all those competent officers are sitting in puddles of their own waste addicted to the game.

Also, on the topic, I tend to use "Sue" not Mary Sue, since, well, it may be tough to be a boy named Sue, but it's not impossible.

For fandom Sues.. Well, it's hard to pick a line, but some are obvious. If you're in Lion King fandom and your character is Scar's daughter who's half dragon and half angel and so she's got two angel wings and two dragon wings and spikes all down her back and she can teleport and kill anyone with one swipe of her paw and she totally beat up Simba and is now the best ruler ever? Think she miiiight be a Sue?

Also, accept that people tend to have similar ideas. So anything new and unique you choose for your OC? Odds are a dozen other people or more have done it. It's why I couldn't take the HP Epilogue seriously, because Harry always has twins named James Albus Severus Potter and Lily Sirius Remus Potter.

[danaphilip.livejournal.com]

There's a difference between a well-rounded protagonist and a Mary Sue.

[snowtroublehere.livejournal.com]

commenting again just to say i love how fandom!secrets can bring GENDER BIAS into everything ever in the entire world

[(Anonymous)]

Your third and fourth paragraphs, I agree with. Your second one, though, I disagree with completely! A character does not avoid being a MS/GS just because they're the main character! The key trait of a MS/GS is that certain things happen to them, not because it makes any damn sense according to in-universe logic, but because the author wants the satisfaction of having that character in that position more than they want to tell a story that's fair to the reader. Nothing in that precludes the universe being created to put the character in that unearned position! MS/GS characters just happen to be easier to detect when they're original characters being written into settings that didn't originally include them.

Suppose I tell you that I've written a story where the main character is a mysterious transfer student whose name is "Misterie" and that two days after she's transferred in, she's already won the hearts of everyone in the school, because she's proved herself to be better at each of two dozen sports and activities than the champions of those activities in the school, and already six different boys, each one a handsome heartthrob, are crazy in love with her and ready to serve her every whim. Oh, and she has shining eyes of a mysterious color no one's ever seen before, and long, naturally luxurious raven hair, a gorgeous figure that she can keep no matter what she eats, and psychic powers. Are you seriously going to tell me that she's a Mary Sue if the school is Hogwarts, but she's not if the school is my own creation? I really don't see the sense of making such an arbitrary distinction.

[sophiesenoo.livejournal.com]

Relevant icon is relevant.

[(Anonymous)]

Part of the problem with the gender issue is that many "empowered female characters" are poorly written characters that exist to be the fantasy of both men and women.

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

This secret is amazing and says so many things I've had a hard time articulating perfectly. ILU for that. <3
A lot of it goes back to something I've seen thrown around here (and thrown around a few times myself): "When a Mary Sue is male we call him 'hero.'" But that's a more recent thing, I think, as Mary Sue has become such an overused term that it's lost all meaning.

[(Anonymous)]

This is yet another reason why I prefer to write in all-anon kink memes. I get to indulge my Sueish fancies to my heart's content, and those who don't mind/like that sort f thing can enjoy it along with me without having to fear being judged.

[nadinthedreamer.livejournal.com]

when will I stop making secrets while sleeping????