[ SECRET POST #2188 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2188 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 102 secrets from Secret Submission Post #313.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

06. http://i.imgur.com/QgN9O.png

[visp]

So... underneath all that ranting, I think the point was that it's unfair to kick assholes out of your fandoms because then they'll go somewhere else and still be assholes?

I'm not even sure how to respond until I know what you're saying.

[nynaeve_sedai]

I was confused by the secret too.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, I think that they are trying to say that getting called out in the way that people do it these days (vitriolic and dogpiling) is much less effective in making someone really think about what they've written than a more reasoned approach. I suppose, in a way, they have a point, since you see as many undeserved attacks as deserved ones. A lot of people eventually become inured to any sort of hostility and don't bother to examine whether it's earned or not.

da

[(Anonymous)]

that was my take on it.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you, but no. I'll never have any interest in coddling oppressors.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you, but no. I have no intention of paying any attention to reactionaries.

[(Anonymous)]

Having a bad opinion don't make someone an oppressor. Shunning and forcing them to leave however makes you oppressive.

[fuchsiascreams]

What if the person who's disagreeing with you is a black, disabled, queer transwoman? Are they still oppressing you by having a difference of opinion?

[ellie_oops]

I agree that the tactics of the "bad" SJW's need to be shut down or curbs. Because it is those people who are really ruining a good idea.

However, I just don't understand what you are saying in that second paragraph. Maybe my brain just isn't in processing mode right now, but it makes no sense to me.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I wrote that secret in a state of "I can't even," and an anon upthread (http://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/731709.html?thread=614535485#cmt614535485) put my main idea a lot more succinctly.

[eaten_by_bears]

It's a little refreshing to see something like this.

[femme_androgyne]

I think "demanding" people do anything is generally a bad idea, because you're not my mom, and you can't tell me what to do, but if a bunch of people in fandom want to stand together against bigotry, I'm not crying any tears for the bigots. They might gather together and keep holding oppressive ideas among each other? That's nice. Makes it easy to know where to avoid.

That said, if you're talking specifically about the gigantic, organized dog piles over relatively innocuous actions that sometimes happen on Tumblr and some of the more SJW-ridden parts of LJ and DW, then, yeah, those people suck. If someone is honestly acting in good faith, and just doesn't realize that, e.g., "transgendered" is problematic, then there's no need to keep yelling at them after they've apologized and promised to try to get their terminology right next time. Really, there's no need to yell at them in the first place if they're not being a jerk about it.

[(Anonymous)]

..."transgendered" is problematic? Crap.

[thene]

I love how language policing has become the be-all and end-all of activism.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with teaching people which words are most appropriate, but making a shibboleth of it is (very literally) about denoting cultural group membership, not about activism. It's the 'You Don't Belong In Our Treehouse' approach to politics; not knowing all the right words (perhaps because you're older, or from a different activist background, or because you've been informed by things written or said more than a few years ago) signifies that you're an outsider and therefore worthy of shunning. See, for example, all the tumblr types who think 'bisexual' is a problematic word and that the entire adult bisexual community must have suspect views on gender because we're persisting in using the word that was the overwhelmingly common identity signifier back when we all came out.

[truxillogical]

Oh, this.

[forgottenjester]

I had a very hard time understanding this secret. I think you hate SJWs... um, good for you? So do a lot of people.

[(Anonymous)]

You. I like you. Have an internet hug.

[(Anonymous)]

Is this in response to the brony backlash secret that popped up recently? Because it really feels like the same sort of dynamic.

tw: mention of rape, racism, slut-shaming

[(Anonymous)]

I was wondering that too. (I was in that thread.)

If that is so: OP, by "shunning" I, at least, meant that the community ought to admonish the following creepy behaviors until either the culprits stopped or simply left: the people defending a rapist even after he admitted to the rape and then slut-shaming the underage victim; people unironically using the N word and complaining at fanartists for making fanart of Twilight Sparkle as a dark-skinned human, people sending death threats at a fan for daring to voice how she thought the name of a fan character was ableist, etc. and then hiding under the rest of the brony community as a defense. That sort of terrible things.

Not things like, calling someone a terrible woman-hating scum that ought to die in a car crash and then burn alive for using the word "bitch", or saying that people calling themselves "bisexuals" are terrible because so and so, etc., like people mentioned in this thread.

OP (whoops, meant to post this before)

[(Anonymous)]

It's in response to a number of fandom trends that have been accumulating in my mind for a while, and starting to look like different facets of the same unsavory thing. I mentioned bronies because reading that thread was sort of a tipping point. It crystallized *why* saying "if you don't want to be painted with the same brush, go on a social justice crusade against the thing your whole fandom is being accused of" felt manipulative and fail-y to me. But it's not about them. It's about people who don't consider themselves SJWs still feeling, to a lesser degree, like they have a right and an obligation to punish outliers, and frown on any fandom that doesn't.

[pelespen]

I'm unsure of how this is even a "secret" by f!s standards. Meh.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

It takes a thorough understanding of what a tone argument is, and more importantly, isn't, to understand that this is not one. Most of the places where I think this needs to be brought up, I'd be shouted down by people who think all criticism is derailing. Hence, secret.

I'm really happy at how much I'm learning from the ensuing conversations this started on f!s. Apart from feeling heard, people are mentioning a lot of relevant things I hadn't thought about.

[(Anonymous)]

I like this secret, but as long as SJW is about putting people down and be smug about feeling superior, instead of helping people who are in a unfair position, this is not going to change.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

The fact that people are recognizing what SJWs are doing as harmful and self-serving is revoking their social license to operate. Remember they're claiming the moral high ground, here.

I also submitted this because I feel like a lot of people who aren't SJWs still feel like shaming, prejudice, and ostracism are things you can use "for a good cause." Maybe at some point that was true. But people take complaints of racism, sexism, and other issues less seriously when they're used as a way of trying to manipulate "anyone who isn't" into going on a social justice crusade.